EN060301B Work; power Interview 1 with Interviewee 1 on Positions of Power - Boss Jamyandorj Byambajav Battsetseg, Translator The Oral History of Twentieth Century Mongolia 2006-03 mn XML Male 1936 Tov, Bayan sum 060301 Jamyandorj (0-00-12) So even though there are many things that we have lost, there are many that we have gained as well. Especially on international relations we have definitely been able to become an independent nation. Both economic and political relations. So I absolutely think positively our country. In the future generally as the saying goes “when self makes an effort, destiny will too.” It will all depend on us and our efforts. Because Mongolia does not lack anything that stands in the way of our country to develop like a real country and for our people to live like real human beings. We have to think and work with our heads for our country and for our people. If we seek personal benefits or by the authority of others we will be thrown away on the history wastebasket, and I don’t think that will happen. I see our future very optimistically. Well, this is how I feel. Byambajav What were the kinds of differences that you observed between the administration of socialist times and the administration after socialism has evolved into democracy? Jamyandorj Well, during socialism we were in a totalitarian state, and that is understandable. There was both a positive and a negative side to the story. The positive aspect was that because of the totalitarian system no one got higher or lower than anyone, very orderly to a certain extent. However, the negative is that it prevents people from thinking for themselves, it makes them disvalue the opinions and suggestions of our own national experts and professionals. And what some of the foolish administrators do is that they do not listen to experts and professionals who truly care about the well-being of their country because they are afraid, they think that they (the experts and professionals would do or say something that might serve them in a negative way. Maybe they think, oh if this guy leaps up and come goes to the top I might lose my job, who knows? Well after we have changed into a democracy our administration, our political administrations and government administrations is developing into an economic administration. That’s is what’s supposed to happen. Well, the reason that I am saying this is that I am saying this in terms of decreasing the government participation, not because I am the denying the government administration one hundred percent, our main administration should operate through the economic mechanisms, but in that condition the policies being passed and executed by our government should be implemented. Well, in that sense in the beginning the administration has disappeared. In the beginning of the 1990s there was not even a political or a governmental administration, no economical admin…administration, everyone did what they wanted and liked to do, and it had transformed into anarchism not a democracy. Well, what can we do? Day by day our administration, our managements is developing. It’s starting to open us its eyes. People are learning and educating themselves, and experiencing many things. Our economics administration under desperate conditions are using econo…companies are using economic mechanisms so that their business would not collapse. Now who performs the best receives a better income, and opportunities for receiving a better income are being created to a certain extent. People are being tested all the time through their work, if they have worked poorly their business/company falls apart. There are many difficulties regarding the administration, government administration. In fact, in the past we had become comfortable living in totalitarianism. Mongolians like to live as they wish, in their own desires and needs go wherever they like and do whatever they please, (0-04-39) (0-04-39) and since they have become accustomed to sparse life without a single administration we actually are not keen on totalitarianism. And we have no such experience. Because of this reason there aren’t a large number of people refraining from their jobs or relinquishment across the country. And there are no such movements or rallies. We have no experience like capitalist nations. So there are many who try to explain the policies being implemented by the administration, by our administration. The administration has not been able to choose the perfect, the best administration really, most of them only temporary. And people who are in the administration are think of themselves before they think of their country. In terms of policy I don’t think that we are nearly there, and I still think about why we are not there. It’s not because people have limited knowledge or are lacking knowledge, we have accumulated enough. For example, why couldn’t we do what we did before to improve our economy? Why can’t we produce our own agricultural products? I think we are very low on this level. Ok, we won’t do it, we don’t need to step ahead and try to produce something that will reach global standards, and we don’t have the possibility. Regardless we can produce goods and products domestically that serve the needs of our own country and our people. (0-06-28) Aa, can we do it? Yes we can. We had many people with acquired careers and professions; they might have gotten a little old, so what? And because we are not doing it, who does it benefit? It benefits the Chinese economy. Their industries and factories as being provided with raw materials, and they are buying our raw materials with said prices with discounted loans from their country. And I don’t think that they do this because they lack the knowledge of the results. Byambajav So do you think it is this nation’s internal strategy? Jamyandorj well, I generally don’t know. Its hard to say, what is it? Is it that we are supporting the Chinese economy? Is it that we are afraid of the Chinese influence? Or are people devoted to China leading this country? I don’t understand. Well this condition cannot continue for a long period. Because first of all we will shrivel more and more and second, we are not utilizing our best resources for industrialization. Not to buy raw materials from foreign countries, develop them and export it but there is nothing in the world that is a more constructive choice than using the raw materials we have in our country, develop them and export. Even then we don’t make use of it. As the saying goes “taking the front of your skirt to sue the back,” and it seems like the thing that we are trying to sue our country with is that we are digging up our land resources and giving/selling it to others basically just to get by. But that has its limits. We may dig for ten, twenty maybe even thirty years and that’s it. That will not be able to be restored. But the animal husbandry will still be there. Lately businessmen like our new Minister, Jargalsaikhan Buyanjargal were talking about developing our wool and leather industry. (0-09-01) I think that it is right first of all, and second of all, I almost feel that they might actually do something. The reason is that a person who has gone up to the ladder he wanted to go to, and was appointed the ministers administrative position as he wanted might have something to think about. In that sense first, I feel that he might do something and second, he has done it in the past, he is an experienced person. Second (it should have been third :P) a person with experience on a matter is more confident and assertive. A person who has no experience is unsure and timid and looses valuable time by worrying over whether he can do it or not. In general, again I am optimistic. I think Mongolians will come to a realization in the future. Well, I don’t think I should talk about international political relations here. Byambajav Please talk. Jamyandorj If I start talking it will take awhile, second, if it’s ok time-wise then I will try to talk very briefly. We are located in between two large world powers. These two powerful nations will not go anywhere, and neither will we. Regardless of this condition we will live and we will prosper. In the midst of all that we will not be able to exist and to develop without cooperating with the Chinese economy that has become almost a 100% supplier our everyday consumer products so we have to use that opportunity, and we have that possibility and the need. Because Russia is not concentrating on a wide range on consumer products as much as China is. Russia is mainly focusing their concentration on a world-wide aerospace space research, weaponry, and primary science and nano technology. They wouldn’t do anything so inane and rubbish like manufacturing large use of consumer products such as clothing. China on the other hand will develop through this path firstly, secondly the Chinese economy will not stay in the same range. It will grow and develop more and more, and by it the quality of their products will get better and better. They will have more brands and varieties, and because we are so close to China there will be no other way than to buy and use their products, and we have to use their products, that more advantageous. Because instead of bringing manufactured good all the way from Japan, bringing in Chinese goods that are just around the corner are more economically wise and beneficial. Aa, as I said earlier, because China is going to develop to a greater extent they will keep on providing for our needs. Aa, on political strategies we will have to do estimations. Therefore we cannot hinder or deteriorate our relations with China at the same time we cannot get under the influence of China. We cannot spoil our relations with Russia but also we cannot get under the influence of Russia as we did in the past. The reason for that is that a great nation’s strategy is always a great nation’s strategy. Me, I have traveled in and out to many places, and during my travels and visits there are many occasions when one starts to think, oh my dear Mongolia is really being pressed in between two powerful nations. Look around. When I would fly home from the North and as the place crosses over the territorial borders of Mongolia the mountains start to undress itself. To the North outside the borders is the Siberian forested mountain range. Look to the East, when you go over and about the Khyangan mountains there is not a single tree. So even powerful nations have even noticed and marked this. Lets look at other countries for example. (0-13-07) (0-13-08) China, aa no, Russia. Russia and Korea border about only 18 km, and before that in China. So because Russia is a great nation, it blocked Chinese influence and made an 18 km long passageway and took it. This is an example of a powerful nation’s far-sightedness that was planned years and years ago. Take a look at our western border: Kazakhstan. Look at the borders of Russia, China and Mongolia. There are only a few kilometers of passageway. Kazakhstan was able to find and obtain this. Powerful nation. This of course will be applied to our country first thing. Second, the more these two nations cooperate they are nations that tend to conspire a plot. China and Russia. In between…because when their relations are bad they usually dispute over Mongolia and are very bad at reaching a consensus. They are bad at get coming together. But the dangerous thing is that when their relationship starts to improve they start to talk about Mongolia and put together a scheme or strategy behind our backs, and that time is coming very close. Their relationship has been very good. What do we do in this situation? Do we try to worsen their relationship? Of course that cannot happen. We can’t impair their relationship. The force that’s pulling them together is the United States, not Mongolia. So do we try to strengthen their relationship? If we do it’ll only be useful for our country. Aa, in doing that we have to be very cautious and pay very close attention to whether they are talking behind closed doors or not. We have to develop and execute our strategies, so that we know what to do and what our next step is when implementing our strategies. This is ou…our Mongolia’s, the people of Mongolia’s permanent existing and subsisting environment and space. We are not going anywhere and we will not go anywhere. Therefore we cannot impair our relationship with China and Russia. But we should have much better more comprehensive relations with third nations (other nations) such as the United States of America, Japan, Korea, England, France and Germany. This is because we do not border one another. No matter how god a relation we have they cannot cross over the borders and through the lands of China and Russia and attack us with an army of soldiers with technological movement. This is the condition in which we can live, which we have been living in and which we will live in the future. We will live under the influence of others, but we have to live wise and strong. We have every possibility. But we won’t have this open opportunity if we slouch and keep our heads to the ground and go by the words of others like we are now. We Mongolians have the foundation of wit and strength. From what I see today Mongolians have not had our own ‘ism’ since the empire of Chinggis Khan. ‘Ism’, they say this ‘ism’, and that ‘ism’. We don’t have that. The Tibetan Gelukba order entered Mongolia. This is a very good religion; there is no other religion like it among all the other religions. It is a humanitarian religion. However the Tibetan Gelukba order is humanitarian it’s not an ‘ism’. Our people were shamanist people. Well, what are the positive aspects of this new religion? What are the negatives? What do the positive aspects do? The Tibetan Galukba order entered our lands and made us humanitarians, they taught us to do good for the people of other nations; this is good. I don’t think any other religion hold this value. But it’s not like I know every religion; I have no more than heard only of the few representative religions (0-17-32). Well, this entered, and until 1921 we went with this external (foreign) ‘ism’. Through the revolution of 1921 we welcomed Marxism. This was not our thing; it was somebody else’s. So while having been disarrayed with this, the external ‘ism’ did not fit with the other, they were not keen on one another. So they took the Lamaism, the Galukba order and Marxism burned thousands of our lamas and doing such things as cutting off their heads. But that was not our ‘ism’. That was an ‘ism’ from the outside. And what these two would do was that they told us ‘whether you go to the right, or you go to the left’ but other than that, they would never tell us to go in between. The Tibetan Galukba order was the same. They would say, you either follow our Galukba order or you will not; if you don’t you are of the wrong faith. Oh yes. And Marxism is the same. You were either a Marxist, if not you were an idealist with capitalist morals. There were no oppor…they didn’t provide opportunities for flexibility for Mongolians. Now, the belief that went in between these two, from a history perspective, I think was called opportunism, running in between two things. Well, if its definitely necessary you have to run in between. Mon…especially Mongolians today have no other choice but to do that. First, because they are in the middle of two great nations, and second, in general if we or anyone keeps one side what happens in the end is that that person or that nation become exhausted and worn out. The exhaustion and near collapse that we are facing right now is because of this. The reason that we have reached this state is that it started a very long time ago from the collapse of Chinggis Khan’s empire, I see it as a tactic of powerful nations. I think that our two neighboring nations think that if we let Mongolian in over our heads, it will never work, they will never get off. They have not been as worried lately, because they themselves are great, big, powerful nations. The historical establishment of these two nations came about due to the result of Chinggis Khan’s Empire. Why? Before then they had major disputes with one another and they couldn’t do anything to rise up and oppose Chinggis Khan and his soldiers, one by one they came under Chinggis Khan’s authority. Took over China. Took over Russia. What happened that time was that small nations has been puting their national problems first on their list and put their independence and their country’s defense from the Mongol Empire of Chinggis Khan second. They lost as a result of their actions. What did they do when they lost? They realized their mistake. So what Ukrain and Kazakhstan did was they thought that they should unite with Russia or else the Mongols will ruin, so they united and established the Soviet Union. The same with China. China was very spread out, every part of the country had their own separate governments and military generals and captains. After China was taken over by the Mongols, the Mongols united China into a one big, mighty country. And from then on they found their awareness too. After the downfall of the Chinggis Empire they realized that if they don’t pay attention they can go back to where they were before and become like the Yuan nation, and that their nation cannot break up. (0-21-34) (0-21-35) The Yuan nation was our country, because Kublai Khan governed there. These are two nations that rose in the outcome of our nation. Then what happened was that it shows a very interesting thing. What happened when the Chinggis Empire no longer existed was that a process started to take place; the countries he united started to fall back apart. The Soviet Union broke apart: Ukraine became a separate nation; Kazakhstan became a separate nation among others. Now China might break apart, because the Chinggis Empire does not stand next to China anymore. Aa, however there is one condition that holds China together. This condition is that there is the United States and Japan is there, protecting China. So a nation grows stronger when tackled from the outside; when not bother from the outside a nation calms and put down their guards eventually careless thus resulting to their breakdown. This is it. Aa, this is actually a part of my main profession, I am a historian you know. I have studied history for about five and a half years. We will continue to live under these conditions. So you, everyone should know your own ground and be smart, know your own ground, your place and be smart internally. You are the people who will hold and continue all our wonderful tradition and culture, this land and its great deal of resources that our ancestors have left us. You will be the ones to shape and condition the future leaders of our country. The future of Mongolia today is not dark and gloomy. There are many poor countries and people in life. Looking at our country in generally our lives has not deteriorated by a large amount. Its blooming, but there are some disappointments. We can scare our government and hold rallies to increase our salaries or better our living conditions anytime. But I wish that they have the strength to make every single one of that opportunity worthwhile. If we get addicted to drugs, human trafficking and start to kill one another here and there like the Muslims that will not be smart at all. What can we do with all that is provided if we ourselves are not intelligent and strong? The reason that I am saying this is because it shows in our everyday lives, today. We starting to taste drugs, we our selling our bodies, but oh when look at the children of our needy families, they are doing pretty well. So as our lives get better I fear that our children might as in the old saying ‘err in happiness.’ We have to keep this in mind. So we have to educate and develop our children, at least help them to be able to take care of themselves and to be able to live on their own. Some might meditate education, it doesn’t matter what they do as long as they obtain an certain profession, then they will be able to find their balance and live. First of all one’s need of intellectual capacity is much smaller than one’s capacity for the need of material goods. Second, it warms up much faster because you are learning, you are learning and you learn. Once you learn you have no other, well you might move one step higher, but you’re done. (0-25-46) (0-25-46) You will use material thing one day and you will have to buy it again on another. You wear and tear your clothes today and you buy a new one tomorrow. So people have to work through material interests. Well, our people have obtained this sad habit, and we think that that is wonderful. When we work we tend to discriminate against manual labor workers. Not only that, one policy mistake of the socialist times was that they distinguished individuals for labor and later changed that to punishment of labor. Because they sent poor workers to the factories, and sent people who have made political mistakes to the country collectives of rural areas. That was how it was. How do you value labor like that? Labor changed to punishment. People, the general public can see this. Especially the punished peoples can see it clearer than anyone, anything. And those people who were punished should love and respect the collective? No. That mistake is the downside of labor education, aa, of labor. But of course it has an upside. They say labor is a matter of reputation. They give them medals and proclaim them as heroes forgetting that they are actually people. They are only doing that to lead and have others follow them, to move them collectively, what other way is there? Even then, when they punish people they take to them to the labor front. We weren’t able to say it then. Aa, the reform movement of the 1990 gave people the opportunity to voice their opinions, but the some of the people who spoke were individuals with small mindless brains who spoke their minds at the wrong place and time, getting to excited in the event. When we spoke during those times, we were left with no food and water, not only that they took away the jobs of our children. They held and controlled people with such actions. We have more freedom today, but we have to speak up at the right place. We cant lecture at the wrong place. I guess that is it. Well, it seems like I have talked quite a lot. Byambajav Well, thank you for making the time to having this interview with me. Jamyandorj You’re welcome. I hope that your project will deliver its results and benefits to Mongolia, to the Mongolian person, and to the people of Mongolia. (0-29-07)