TR060303 Gandan; religion Gandan Interview, Person 4 Luvsan Ishdorj The Oral History of Twentieth Century Mongolia 2006-03 en XML Male 060303 Ishdorj Well, my name is Ishdorj. I work in the International Association for Mongol Studies. Well, then our association, together with Cambridge University of England, is implementing an oral history project by conducting conversation with someone orally. Now, we like to make an interview with you. Well, the interview will archived in two places. Would you agree that it be kept in archive? Luvsan You are going to do what? Ishdorj Would you agree to keep it in an archive? Luvsan Oh, yes, I do. Ishdorj And, would you agree that scholars use this interview of yours referring to you? Luvsan Ok. ... Ishdorj Well, then would you tell about this, about yourself, what you kept in your mind and now what you think. Where are from, and what is your origin? When were born? Well then please tell continue to tell us what you remember. …. When you were 7 years old… Luvsan Well, until I reached 17, I stayed over there (in inner Mongolia). After 17 and at 18 I came here in Da Khuree – Ulaanbaatar, by camel (тэмээтэй маалингаар? maalinga is actually a large sack woven from hoarse hairs, it might have been camel caravan carrying goods in those sacks). Then quite a few years have passed since my arrival here. I congregated here for years, when the 7th year arrived the congregation was closed (лац хурлаасаа хайрлаад л -wax was bestowed from congregation, probably meant temple doors were sealed) (1.16.51) so we were arrested and now…(the temples) were demolished as deserted town. Ha… it was in 38, yeah 38. So I worked in artel that is how I made living. So at Shar (Yellow) sum of Hovd , there I spent about ten, more than ten years. Now as for the history of the Shar sum I don’t know much. In which year its history began I don’t know. Anyway, it was during the period when Chinese (Manchu) amban (Governor) resided there. Then the amban had fallen ill, his queen also got ill, he had a certain term of stay. Since there were no cars or air planes he had his term prolonged, unable to leave. Doctors from China visited often but were unable to cure their illness. Then, there was one Mongolian by the name of Dondog, a lama who used treat people by using various methods. So that Dondog came, he was brought by summon. Dondog examined, they were examined by him. He said I can cure. When he said that those over there and the amban agreed to be treated and were very happy. And said cure them, he said I could cure. And said: at the end I would ask for a thing (a favour), would you be able fulfil it? Amban’s reply was yes, I can. (1.18.24) Then he released their serum and the queen was cured remarkably. So apparently, she regained her youth and beauty. There is a lonely black hillock to the north of shar sum of Khovd so that Dondog lama had built a small temple on its slope, this was how the eastern white temple Rinchingombo had seized to exist on its own. (1.18.42) Well, now that courier from Khovd, in other words the relay post, had to leave at a fixed time and arrive at a fixed time, failing that was punishable by law and the messenger was beheaded. (1.18.52) So (Dondog petitioned) I intended to build a sum (temple) which would hold prayer services (1.18.59) for the wellbeing of your disciple. He wrote the petition asking for permission and was thinking to ride by the next morning, so asked the amban how many days had he to gallop. Amban replied: That very petition of yours was relayed by the next morning and handed over to the Emperor (1.19.13). It was relayed by electrical current (could be by power of magic). So exactly when did it reach (is not clear), anyway the Emperor did get that petition in no time. Then the Emperor examined the petition, told that such a petition was received from northern Mongolia, how should we decide this. What the petition says is that they want to build 8 shar temples for the good health of mine. And it is exactly what saw in my dream. So what to do with it was discussed at a meeting of his close relatives. We may give the permission to build the temples on expenses from our treasury, so let’s give our agreement and the rest also agreed to built the temples from treasury. They would not know who will be in charge, so a thousand persons were sent, including the carpenters. Ishdorj Aaahhhh….. Luvsan So the directive was to complete the construction in three years. And take the money from treasury. So, as they say, it is how the eight shar temples were built. At the time when the construction of eight shar temples were finished in Kalhha it is said that there were 3 gegeens holding the credentials of Manchu emperor. At that period, they were Narvanchin, Dilav and Jalkhanj. The three were assigned to take charge of the temples, in turn, each one for three years. So at the beginning, they were in charge of the temples for three years in turn, later the other two were either busy or had some other duties and they entrusted the affairs of the temples to the younger Jalkhanj or hired him and left whether he was hired or had no other option is not known. The two had come in twice and used to be seated at the two sides, now Jalkhanj was in full charge and continued as such. There was a big (Chinese) firm called Daashinkhuu built on emperor’s treasury every thing for the congregation and worship was provided by the firm. Bring this and that and the money was given from the treasury and fund, they had not so many lamas and a very strict accounting system. They say that there were the so called Naya na… sul naya and changa naya. Changa naya means salary, equal to zurgaan zandant eight lan (a liang, Chinese ounce equal to 37.3 grams) of silver. Sul naya received a salary of six lans of silver, the lamas were considered to be in the service of Manchu emperor and regularly received their salary. All these were made and coordinated in the temples, such a such men received this and that it was recorded in written and signed, it was also inscribed on the buildings, accounts and records were kept in every temples in special envelopes. On it was written “Manchu Emperor”. Ishdorj It was in Shar sum congregation [hural]. Isn’t it? Luvsan Yeas. There were eight Shar sum. In that eight shar sum there were eight temples. This was how the eight Shar temples were built. So that very lama Dondog had been the first head lama. The first lama, there was such a lama they say. Well, this is meant to be the history, a brief history (of Shar sum). The history was inscribed on stone books (inscriptions on stone tablets). There were all destroyed. The inscriptions were both in Mongolian and Tibetan languages. There is no more stone tablets. In this Dambadarjaa there is one, years ago Badarch erected a big stone goohon (a kind of obelisk) and inscribed the history. Later when you look at it the inscription, it became rather vague, so by smearing with soot to make carvings more visible it was shown to a man called Tserendagva, and was read by him. (1.22.12) Don’t know, what came out of this work. ?? Well, so at 18 I came here and congregated at Dashchoimbol datsan, 6 years passed and on the 7th in 1938 it was closed, then I was repressed, this was what happened. I was innocent. Now many materials related to the repression are being published, various things happened. Datsan and sums were demolished, all this was done by Russian soldiers, they were bringing down the temples and loading belongings in temp…of this palace (into lorries), in three temples Russian soldiers were quartered, they holed the walls to make windows, and guards with…buu… guns were standing at the doors. Well, Gandan was deserted. It (Gandan) was thought to have 6000 lamas. 3000 lamas of Dashchoimbol, 1000 of Idvaa, 2000 of Gungaachoinlin monastery altogether it was said to reach the figure of 6000. Yes, after 1937, 38 and 39, in general, Gandan was left empty and deserted. Lamas from everywhere were scattered, scattered in such way that very a few actually remained. Then, it was a time of great fear and suffering. Order and organisation were rarely present. Arrests went on during the day and through the nights, those arrested were driven away. Lamas were secularised and artel (A Soviet type working collective) of lamas were organised at empty places. Many lamas were mobilised in the army. Those who were from countryside left for their homes. Those who could not go to countryside were admitted in schools or organised into artels. In 1938, it was in 1938 or 9 the so called artels were organised at the site Gandan and over 100 lamas joined it. It was the beginning of artels, 3 artels were organised in Rashaan ?, 1 in Zuun Khuree, At Gandan 3 artels were organised by doing so they were coming back. So in this way lamas scattered, started to work, went to the countryside so this was how lamas were abolished and disappeared. No one. That was all about Gandan. Very a few survived that upheaval. Ishdorj Could you talk a little about the buildings and furnishings? Luvsan Sorry. Ishdorj What were the buildings and furnishings like? Luvsan Oh, until 1930’s I did not see any multiple storey building. So it was very interesting to see it. I think there were one or two three or four storey buildings. This undur Khorshoo (Tall shop) was there. There was a blue building of the Government, which is now Teacher training institute. There were two small red houses of the central committee, in fact a single building. The central association of the cooperatives was housed in a two story wooden house. Here, this I didn’t see in 32 or 33. (1.25.06) After that was also brought (1.25.08) down (1.25.10), there was the Lenin club. That was a one storey shadowy thing. After that more and more multi-storey houses were built. Not far from here to the north a one story house for officers of Ministry of Interior was built it was later enlarged to three storeys. After that two policlinics were built at Gandan, on the northern side of Gandan. A small four storey school named after Suchbaatar was there, is it still there, yes, I think it is there. Actually here, there were no surplus things. This Gandan as town was separate, from year to year there existed a few khashaans and only lamas lived here. Further to the south in khoroo (sub district) of Buriads, there were two khashaans known as the officers sub district. Power plant and Industrial zone were not built. On the east side only Chinese lived.(1.25.54) It was a Chinese district. Zuun Khuree was separate. On the east side of Zuun Khuree there were a group of ails (households) known as kharchuul (the commoners). The rest were Chinese, I don’t know how many streets in all. That was it. Ishdorj Can you tell about how the lamas were arrested? Luvsan Sorry. Ishdorj About the arrest of lamas? Luvsan Oh, now who knows (1.26.22) people were arrested. During that period I was in a place called Dov of Nomun Khan’s aimag, I had erected a khashaan. And I spent 6 years over there. I had small a gate, before it there was a small empty plot (1.26.36) people were arrested there. They called people by names and pointed where to stand, there would also be many soldiers. Then they would come after the lamas and take them away, take away, who knows where they were taken. Then they were driven away. I saw it happen. At the end was it 39…30… 39 well, in 38, there was an old lama with walking cane by name of Luuzan gabj to the west (from my khashaan). That time an order was imposed that there must be a witness present during the arrest. It happened that when there was no evidence or document crooks arrested people, eliminated them and took their belongings as a share of bounty, it happened many times. They had been arrested and zarchuulsan (apparently meaning they were executed) I was also frightened. One Gabj (1.27.24) together with a military man, and a Mongol man entered my home. They asked my name, and what I do again and again. And said come out. Then it was autumn a warm period, it was probably the last month of autumn. So I came out, I was frightened, well, that is it, they would now arrest me. It was a morning. (1.27.29) They said this was not the case. So we walked, walked to this side and came to Luuzan guia’ s home. Well, Luuzan gambj, an old stooped man was at his home. They showed him a ga…paper (document). I was barely literate in Mongolian, could barely read or write (1.28.05), it was written in Mongolian (1.28.07), they handed it over Luuzan guai. Then they questioned him. It was a document curtailing his rights (meaning to detain) signed by Choibalsan (1.28.05). So he was arrested. Then they searched his home, poor thing, there were almost nothing of any value. There was a storage. There were some nice things made of yellow silk (1.28.27) black and yellow materials (cloth), also from jins (could be a rough cloth, jins actually means the button of rank on top of hat used in feudal Mongolia, so the meaning is unclear ). Well, there was only one chest (1.28.32) books inside, all books were thrown out by the searchers. In the small storage, there was some food. Some blended butter, meat, about 10 liter of airag (fermented mare’s milk), it was a time when it would be almost frozen. Then Luvsan guai called children (1.28.53) and said could I give these little food and drink to this child? And asked would I take them. I said “yes”. “Take out” they said. I took them out of the storage. So the respected lama was arrested. And I was told to look after his khashaan. Then one day when I was at the artel I was summoned to the office of the artel. I wondered what was to happen, then a man with a paper in his hand called my name, and said we would confiscate the belongings of Luvsan guai, come (with us). When I came a man with two horse cart was dismantling his gher, there was only one good felt wall covering, the rest were all threadbare and porous. There were nothing of value in the storage. (1.29.27) So bits and pieces were collected. Wooden floor of the gher was eaten by worms hopelessly. So those scraps were loaded on two horse carts to take away. They said: if you could spread and fix them (felt coverings). There were some firewood. Would you take them they asked. I said yes. So I took the firewood, swept the garbage, collected and bound by wire scattered books and stored them here and there. So the rubbish of the gher was piled into a hollow nearby, what else I could do. Those who took his belongings probably cleaned the rest, I don’t know. I carried the little fire woods to my khashaan. Ha ha. That was it. Those who were confiscating said I could take it. This is what was happening. Well, there was one gabj by name of Jamba, a neighbour of our street. He would often come to me. One morning when you wake up probably my doors would sealed watch out he would say. One morning when I got up looked at, his doors were sealed. He was arrested. Well, we told each other Jamba guai had been arrested then after more that 10 days he suddenly came back in old lama robe. How did you manage to get out we asked he said I was sentenced for 10 years. We asked him what happened and how it happened then he told his story. He was arrested by a man whom he happened to know. He was an acquaintance who worked in the Ministry (of Interior). So when many arrested people were being escorted by the Ministry building. When they reached the building a man asked “is that Jamba there among you. And called come here”. Lamtan was put in the jail of the Ministry of Interior. He was not escorted further, it was arranged that way by the acquaintance. So he was kept over for…for a while and was sentenced to 10 years and sent to work. So prisoners were sent to Gandan to dig holes to put poles (for telephone, radio lines or transmission of electricity), and Jamba guai was among those who came to dig the holes. That was how came back. And he told that if he was not sentenced but sent further he, for sure, should have been executed. Jamba told that an acquaintance of mine called Khandsuren saved my life by putting me in the jail of the Ministry of Interior and giving me this conditional sentence. And there were so many who had been arrested, how I can tell everything about them, it is impossible. That time it was almost impossible for two, three people join together or visit someone for a chat. People in civilian clothes used to circle around, around the Gandan asking where this or that person lives. One Naidan no, no Namjil, who later joined our artel, was arrested. We were asking each other what happened to Namjil and was told he had been arrested and escorted. Then Namjil soon came out of the prison sentenced to 10 years. While he was sentenced to 10 years, what do you think, he was released after 2 or 3 years. But after a while following his release Namjil was again arrested. (1.32.22) We all asked what happened, why etc. The people told that a very queer and strange thing happened. Well, it was like this. One Saturday he was carrying a lantern. Do you know there is a lantern (lit with kerosene) an oblong glass lantern? Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan It is a small lantern. Lamas used to lit it in their khashaan, always lit that glass lantern in their khashaans. And then there was a small … ki…kiosk that sold gasoline, oil and kerosene. He bought a bottle of kerosene from the kiosk, was on his way back. Someone asked “what are you carrying lama guai?” Well, I am carrying a bottle of kerosene he replied.(1.32.53) So he went away. Then sometime later two men came in asking for whereabouts of an ail (family, household). Whether they found that ail or not, who knows. Then, after 2-3 days he was arrested and taken away. I asked why you were arrested and he himself told me. Ha, because of one bottle of kerosene I was sentenced to 10 years of imprisonment. I asked what happened? They took me to the Ministry and asked whether I was carrying gasoline to set fire to the Ministry of Interior? I replied “no”. Then they pressed the charges against me saying you were carrying that in order to set fire to the Ministry of Interior and sentenced me to 10 years. It was what Namjil told me. It is true that such a thing happened. Buyantohtokh lama came out from prison after being sentenced to 10 years over 10 years because of fat oil. Ishdorj Ha ha. Luvsan I know that Buyantohtokh. He was imprisoned and sentenced to 10 years but did not stay long, after 4, 5 years he was released for the detention. I know him very well. Afterwards we talked about it. I would ask him why you were arrested so on and this and that? Oh, I had spread something in my miserable storage (дэглээд? probably delgeed) and put it few kg of fat oil. Well, it might have been something about 7 or 8 liters or not I don’t know. Two men came in asked whereabouts of an ail and left. Then they asked: why are you, Lama guai, storing so much fat instead of using it for frying home pastry during this harsh moths of spring. Well, then they arrested me. You were storing fat oil to cook pastry for provisions and were planning to flee abroad. They pressed during the questioning is it true that you were preparing to cook pastry and flee? Ha ha. He said no I did not. But it really became a menace. They insisted you should merely confess (ерөөдөг?) (1.34.23). Well, for a while he continued to insist his innocence saying that he had just accumulated a little fat but at the end he once said yes, I thought why I could not flee. So it turned out that his intention to flee was true. Ishdorj yes. Luvsan So the sentence was 10 years in jail. So deeds of merit were turned into sin (1.34.37), it happened so often and so many times. That is how they were arrested. This is just what came to my mind, many were arrested, who knows what charges were pressed against them. These are two instances which I heard from their own mouth. Ishdorj And then afterwards, when did you return to the Gandan? Luvsan Oh, I was admitted to Gandan in 90. I came here directly, after 12 years in 70, for 12 years I had worked in artel and some other place, I went back to my native place and there I also worked in artel, worked here and there, so I think it was in 72 I returned here. There were many of my acquaintances in Gandan. It had lamas and congregation was reopened. They told me to give my petition. So wrote my petition and gave it at a congregation 3,4 years passed but there were no reply. One day I saw the people but the answer was that my petition was not there. The answer was given by, who was there, oh yes that very Danzan lama, Danzan gabj. He said you should write your petition once again. I wrote yet another petition, no reply. Then they did not give me the permission. Three lamas were (not “yavsan” but avsan) admitted. There was one Luvsannamjil, son of Dagvadorj. He was admitted. No permission was accorded to me. The permission was given either by the Government or by a Ministry. So I was told no permission granted. No other words. Then came 90, 89. This Zana guai was the khamba. He called me one day. And said: well, those organizations that were in charge of the religion are now evidently being disbanded. Now it is obvious that you may join the congregation. So in 90 this Dashchoimbol datsan was in existence as an organization. (1.36.23) Then that very Chookhor (pockmarked) Gonchig told me now you may join the congregation, so I joined. That is how I joined. And this is my life. Ishdorj So you served in Dashchoimbol 5, 6 years, it is so, yes. Luvsan You mean before? Ishdorj Oh, is it before? Luvsan Ah, we sat two times for 6 years.. Ishdorj You sat for 6 years. Luvsan Yes. Ishdorj In which class [zindaa] you were in? Luvsan I sat in Dashchoimbol class (1.36.47). Ishdorj How many classes were there? Zindaa means in modern days a class. In other words 1st and 2nd course. Luvsan Class. Well, Dashchoimbol has now 10 zindaa [classes] such as khadag, shidev, jumbrai, guijun, donjuu, go, um, gadamba, damba, arai. Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan When you progress further after aa dom, there are um shirav, umnyamba, zod, sarva gaaramba, gaaramba 5 zindaas, the main 5 zindaas. Ishdorj So you finish after 15 years. Luvsan Yes, of course. It is so. So I left in winter of 1937 from gadamba. Ishdorj By the modern standard you had left when you were in 9th grade or class. Luvsan Almost 9th class, yes. Then in the spring, it was now the last month of spring. There were very few lamas. Then there was one Davaa who was the caretaker of hall of congregation of the temple. He was from shuteenii aimag. There were no gesgui, no unzad. So he used to strike the gong we used to hold the daily rite.. recitals.. golchin (1.37.42) So a few lamas would gather and decided, we would ho… somehow continue the congregation. There was a lama called Luvsanbaldan of Sartuul, he was living very close to me. Then one day he said the temple was closed and its doors were sealed. It was sealed simply by a white paper and closed. So as it happened, we had no congregation to chant, no one who would congregate and read books. None who could continue the service. There was no other option than to break up. That was the situation. That year many were recruited in military service, recruited into the army. There was only the city administration. There were no districts. I think the military mobilisation office was at the city administration, I mean those in charge of it, since there were no districts. So we were summoned and told that we should join the army. Many joined the army, some went to the country side and vanished. Regardless of the fact whether you were from a far away place or from the neighbourhood, everyone was enrolled in schools or took up some job. That is how everything had vanished. Ishdorj How many lamas were in your class [zindaa]? Luvsan 267. Ishdorj Now, they were (1.38.45) permanent, it means. Luvsan eh. 267 Ishdorj Were they mostly from countryside? Luvsan Oh yes, of course. They were all from far away places. They came from each and every of these over 10 aimags. Even from Uvs, about 10 lamas were here. (1.38.59) Ishdorj aaahhhh. Luvsan Very learned gevshis came from Uvs. Upper 16 (1.39.03) Ishdorj Was it a school mainly studying religious philosophy? Luvsan Ah, yes, we studied philosophy.. Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan We didn’t just study philosophy. It discovers the universe. That was the rule. What exists now would disappear. Well, what we see now, would someday become useless and obsolete. For example, we now look at a building. One day it would be demolished, that is actually something of this sort. The essence of the Philosophy of khooson chanar (emptiness) is this. So what you need is Buddha, lama and gonchigsum. That’s why you pray for the good and wellbeing of many living creatures. You read books for the good of all living beings. It is what was taught to lamas. You live not solely for yourself but for the good of many other living beings, to save many beings. I don’t think personally I was thinking of the good of many living beings. If I saw a learned lama I thought how I would become like him, how I would be a nice gevsh like him, was the thought I had but not really the wellbeing many beings. Ishdorj There must have been many good learned lamas? Luvsan Oh no words to describe, there were in thousands. In many thousands… Ishdorj I heard that there was one Angi Shagdar. Luvsan Yes, there was. He was my teacher. Ishdorj Mmm.... aaahhh..... Luvsan I studied a lot of books with that teacher. It is said the 13th Dalai lama came (to Mongolia) together with many gevsh. When the 13th Dlai lama was invited here, there was an inner Mongolian lama in Zuu (1.40.41). He had an audience with Dalai lama and said you are going to visit Mongolia (1.40.45) and have debates there. The Khalkha Mongol gevshis of the Gandan are extremely well versed and sacred people (turned to baldan) just like a raging fire. So please take with you good learned lamas. He himself was a very learned person. He was, they say. now at this Gandan in this baruun (western) jud (1.41.02). So many lamas paid visit (to Dalai lama) and respectfully debated books. Our teacher of the Sun Dorjzundui was there. But he was not admitted in audience so he had fried some pastry (1.41.45) and was distributing them to the lamas and by doing so he came to Dalai lama and asked can speak about book? You may was the reply. And he (Dalai lama) said I was told there is a congregation you people attend. Then at first he put some questions. So he (Dorjzundui) replied promptly and his opponents found out that he was very well versed and trained in debate. (1.41.34) That is how he was first admitted and took part in debate. So for three evenings, he was told to come the next day. So he was there. On the last day, they did that. I don’t know where it was from, they had a recorder, there are many in America, it was from America. And they recorded his voice on a phonograph and took away with them. During his visit he (Dalai lama) met only 3 lamas. There was, that Puntsag meerembe. Ishdorj Ah han. Luvsan He was called ogotor (undersized) Puntsag. (1.42.09) There was also one Oold (Oirat) Shagdar, They say that he had met these three lamas and hold debates (on religious teachings) over there. Then these three lamas were indeed very good. Angi bagsh (teacher) came with a lama of his class. So the debate and discussion continued for 3 days. So both zindaa, ours and theirs proved to be extremely tough. They were tough in Khalkh as well as in Tibet. Now, there is no one to debate even in Tibet and in Khalkha. (1.42.39) Well, if Rinbuchi Kaidavdorj was still… a.. alive, he could have debated in this manner. He had received the rank of lharamba. So, that’s why their voices were recorded.. Ishdorj What time do you usually get up and visit your teacher and for how many hours? Luvsan Oh very late, very late, Ishdorj А…а. Luvsan In morning with the call of birds, see birds start calling, we start. There was no clock. With the call of birds, with sun rise we are awakened. Get up with birds call and greet our teachers. Ishdorj yes Luvsan Then our teachers co… congregate. Teachers would say don’t hinder the congregation, go out and attend your congregation. Then, the congregation was held, the order was strict. Then we congregate (1.43.15) until noon and take a break for rest. This was the congregation of the bandi (novice lama, disciple). In evening by the strike of gong the evening congregation starts. Teachers would tell us how long we should congregate. Then there is the big thing of nom niileh (studying and reading books together). So in this manner it continues until 12 o clock. We get up very early. A disciple had no free time other than 4, 5 hours for sleep in a day. This is exactly, how things run. Ishdorj You had just one guntseg (meal) a day. Luvsan Аа yes. At noon we ate. We ate just at noon. It is for this meal that …. Ishdorj Аh haaa, yes Luvsan It is for this meal that we had (gadaalah) a break at noon. Ishdorj Аah haa. Luvsan Then we also take a meal in the evening. A good meal (Долоодоо бол их?) There is a very strict order in the congregation. That was it. Ishdorj How many years do you stay in Khadag zindaa Luvsan Oh in khadag zindaa... Ishdorj Now in this elementary... Luvsan In khadag zindaa you don’t stay for a year Ishdorj yeah. Luvsan You may stay there for 10, 20 days or 20, 30 days. Ishdorj Mn mn. Luvsan It is a rule. So every one has to pass the khadgan zindaa. Then after about a month we have pass the test. A high lama sits at the side of the gesgui. And you start debate (question and answer session ) on khadag training. Барина? You also debate the shid as well as from the Zumbarai Well, then if you were able to pass the test successfully the you start moving to the next zindaa. You move to khadgam zumbarai… Ishdorj Аh hnnn. Luvsan To shidev. Almost up to the Shirjim (1.4 4.40) Now (Одоо шал барьж??) Ishdorj Аh hnnn. Luvsan Now as for me I came by the end of spring. I had passed the test on khadag after a month, moved to shidem from there also moved to the other (1.44.53) on zumbarai, yah on zumbarai. Ishdorj Аh ha. Luvsan The next year I moved to bulhum (1.44.56) . This is how you progress. Ishdorj Аh ha. Luvsan In khadag zindaa in a day there may be 10 or 5 persons. It happens that there is almost no one there. Well, then they…eh are given in the beginning the book and the shidem (?). So when they come to congregation hall, there are two khadags, zuun (eastern) khadag and baruun (western) khadag. So those who are seated on the right become baruun aimag and those at the left become zuun aimag and in future they continue to sit in this manner. Well, then they join together when there is a congregation in the hall. They may be even examining one’s teeth for they are all young (1.45.34) though they are considered to be lamas. Then they are sent (1.45.36) to dondom, after a…attending dodom they become og. In og goshoo you do lot of thing. Once in og goshoo you collects letters (papers) of ogiin goshoo and keep them. These papers are accumulated until you reach gaaramba. Ishdorj Right Luvsan With 500 papers you become the gaaramba. And present them to the Gabj. 500 means you have 5 times received papers from gaaaramba, so it is 500 in all. Ishdorj Well.. Luvsan Тhen, after that gaarmba, when you come to gabj, they check those letters. You give your letters. They ask: who is the angi? Who is the rule? Is he still here, is there? So after checking and studying for three years you present the papers Ishdorj Аh ha. Luvsan Аh so you present those to each and every gavj. You give the letters of og to gavj. Ishdorj Ah, ha. Luvsan There is nothing else. You just keep them and give them to gaarmba rule. There was a separate rule called Gaaramba rule. So after that it was all over. Ishdorj Well, how many years will pass after being handed over to gavj? Luvsan 3 years. Ishdorj 3 years? In the courses of Gavj Luvsan Yes in gavj courses Ishdorj Then one becomes a gavj. Luvsan After checking the presented garmaa. Ishdorj Аh haa. Luvsan So you receive the right. (1.46.52) Ishdorj In general, in which zindaa and about how many books do you have to study? Luvsan Аh, there is а clear indication how much one should study. Ishdorj Мm hn. Luvsan It is clearly inscribed that in such a goshoon one should read such a such books. In such a zindaan one should learn such and such books etc. When one visits in a day 4 teachers they will teach you 4 different book. Some of the… Ishdorj Аh haan. Luvsan For instance one who came to Danzanjav will study Danzanjav with one teacher, tsalam with the other, (1.47.18) gaadamba with another etc. it will proceed in this manner. In learning, there are not that much which should be learnt by heart. They will explain, bestow on you zogsol (1.47.27), you listen to explanation and understand it, this how the teaching goes. Ishdorj Receiving the wisdom Luvsan Yes, you continue receiving the wisdom. Ishdorj And discuss among yourselves Luvsan Discuss Ishdorj Learning as much as one would Luvsan Yes. Start learning and then learn by heart, then you discuss among yourself for example that teacher said this and that, he did this or that, how you’ll respond to this etc. after congregation we discuss about it. It was usually a noisy affair. Ishdorj Аh hааn. Luvsan After many such noisy discussion sessions you improve your knowledge (and debating skill). This is how we improved ourselves. Ishdorj In Dashchoimbol, they say, those congregating regardless of their status of being a son of noyan, a son of rich man or a son of poor, they were all in one zindaa and received the same provisions while studying there, is it so? Luvsan Probably it was so. Actually, there were no provisions as such, may be from countryside. Ishdorj Ааh Luvsan There were no rules to supply (1.48.10) provisions from countryside. Ishdorj yeah. Luvsan If there is no congregation, the congregation will break up. Even there is a congregation they will leave it and go away (1.18.17). Ishdorj Мn hn. Luvsan The caretaker of temple (1.48.18) would also leave. You receive 3 , 4 tugrugs for a whole month of congregation. Ishdorj Мn hn. Luvsan At that time we would receive 20 мöngö (coins), 10 мöngö. I don’t know whether it was collected or what. It is distributed according to the income of the datsan. Aimag datsan kept record of every congregation, who and who paid and how much. Ishdorj Аh haan. Luvsan Well, aimag temple is a separate entity, so it will distribute what it can afford. Aimag temple give what ever it could afford just once in a month. Ishdorj So you would prepare your monthly provision on what you receive. (1.48.48) Luvsan Oh yes. Yes. At the same time… Ishdorj Prepare your clothes. Luvsan Then, there was the Damjaas (courses). Ishdorj yes Luvsan You attended 4 courses annually at Dashchoimbol. Ishdorj Мn hn. Luvsan Four times four. You attend a course for 3 days. So three times four is 12. So, in order to treat 4 persons to a meal you give fried pastry, a around pastry. We were living on that pastry. Ishdorj yes Luvsan We also would sell the pastry. Ishdorj Мn hn Luvsan Yes, took out it and sold it. Hee… hee. Ishdorj A teacher of ours told us that their main winter provision consisted mostly of heads (of slaughtered animals) and blood sausages, internal organs and bits and pieces of that sort. Luvsan Yes, the head. Ishdorj In summer it was mainly dai.. dairy products, airag, milk, milk curd and the like were the meals. Luvsan Yes, in general, in summer you don’t eat much. Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan Aa in winter it is…. Of course we would buy hea… heads, blood sausages and internal organs (of slaughtered animals). Well, we mainly bought blood sausages. Ishdorj Мn hn.. Luvsan We bought a lot of blood sausage. Except blood sausages if you had 20 mungu in olden days you could buy a what. A whole skeleton (stripped of meat) of a sheep. Since it is bones, you bring it, cut into pieces and boil, thus get bone soup. Ishdorj yeah Luvsan So you add a little flour and make meat broth or threw some millet and ate. Ishdorj Right, adding it to the broth Luvsan yes. Ishdorj Then you pick the meat of the bones Luvsan So and so Ishdorj Also fat of tail Luvsan Then you pick meat of the bones, of course, there were almost no meat to pick, the soup is good. Well, it was supposed to be bones with meats to pick. This way we would pass a few days. Ishdorj yeah Luvsan Supposedly, bones had pick up meat. That is how we passed several days. Ishdorj Right Luvsan Yes. Thus we spent a few days. Ishdorj Аа haan. Luvsan Even if we had no food or money we really did not mind it. Ishdorj Мn hn. Luvsan So we somehow managed. I don’t really know how it worked. (1.50.22) I was from a distant land. And I did not receive anything from my home. So you had to live with what you had. Ishdorj You did not receive anything from your family. Luvsan Aaahhh Ishdorj You did not receive anything from your family. Luvsan No, no, nothing. Ishdorj You had no relatives here. Luvsan No, none. Ishdorj Мn hn. Luvsan So, it was nice. Ishdorj So you read your books and were content with that. Luvsan Read your books, read your books and attend congregation [hural]. Ishdorj Мn hn. Luvsan We satisfy our needs from the congregation. Ishdorj That.. Luvsan The temple sells pastries and conduct religious service [To finance its activities]. Ishdorj Well, for 6000... or there were about 3000 lamas the temple prepares morning tea (manz), does it . Luvsan Yes, yes. Ishdorj Then, this tea was prepared in one kitchen. Luvsan One, one, one, one Ishdorj How was the tea was brewed? Luvsan Аа.. there was a big caldron. Ishdorj Мn hn. Luvsan I saw it. Ishdorj Right. Luvsan To clean inside of it one had to descend by a stair. If you just descend you can’t get out. Ishdorj Мn hm. Luvsan If you just descend you can’t get out. Ishdorj Okay Luvsan Tea was not prepared for 3000 lamas all the times. There were 3, 3 kettles, medium size kettle, small size kettle, so tea (manz) was brewed usually in the medium sized kettle. If it were to be brewed in the great caldron it would take a complex and all round preparation. Ishdorj yeah Luvsan Аа.. there was no such a thing, a thing (big stove). Stove was made of different stones, sort of half stove, it is fired by big pieces of woods about 1m 50 cm in length was cu… sliced just in two pieces and thrown into the fire anything smaller would not produce enough heat to boil the content (1.51.30). In that great caldron one side would be boiling when the other side was still ice cold (1.51.36). Brick tea was broken into 2, 3 pieces and thrown into it and was not too much (хонох?). A paunch full of butter was put into the tea and ladled. One side would be boiling vigorously while on the other side the butter would only start melting. Of course, many cook would be participating in the preparation. Up to 30 cooks. The tea was poured into many large vessels and cooks would carry, some on their back while some big vessels would be carried on poles of yoke. (1.52.02) Ishdorj Аа haan. Luvsan The kitchen was not very far from the temple, a little further down. Ishdorj Мn hn. Luvsan Tea was brought in on poles of yoke. Then the tea was served. In a Mandala (solemn offering) many lamas would congregate. Tea was brought in the temple and cooks would serve, there might a container between 4 lamas that is it. Then, when there were so many lamas present in one place a lot of hoar and frost would…. Ishdorj Мn hn. Hoar and frost Luvsan A lot of steam and vapour would arise. Ishdorj The temples were not heated Luvsan No, no. Cloth, in winter felts curtains were hung on the doors. Ishdorj So that many lamas were warmed by the heat of their bodies.. Luvsan So they did not feel cold and were used to it. Ishdorj Мn hn. Luvsan There was a rule. Ishdorj Аh haan. Luvsan According to the rule. Those of lower zindaa sat in the middle, along the two sides sat gaaramba and this and that, in centre sat the zindaa of gabj. In back rows sat many gabj. It was such a datsan. Ishdorj There were livestock of the Jasa. Luvsan Аа, sorry Ishdorj There were the livestock of Dashchoimbol datsan, right?. Luvsan I heard that there were. There was a herd of horses. Ishdorj Herds of horses, cows and sheep. Luvsan There were cows and sheep. There were horses. During autumn saying that it was time to brand foal, several strong hardy lamas would go. (үнэг барих? “Catching fox” makes no sense. Even today in autumn yearling colts are branded in a special ceremony. Apparently, strong lamas were called to hold the colt tight during branding). Ishdorj yeah Luvsan I don’t know this place called Emerkhii Khudag, it should be not very far. Namdagsuren of my zindaa (class) used to go once in the autumn, they were branding horses, There were horses. Whether there more cattle I don’t know. Ishdorj Аа haan. Luvsan Probably, there were more cattle. As I remember there were horses. Since they were branding horses, don’t know. Ishdorj So your main occupation was book, reading the book and Luvsan Yeah, my main occupation was book. Daily recitation of book, we recited these books in Dashchoimbol. Sometimes, in the evening I would read “Ganjuur” of nine precious jewels, when I was free of congregation, not during it. Ishdorj Аа haan. Luvsan Congregation to recite “Ganjuur” of nine precious jewels started early by morning sun rise. And finished the recitation in the evening . . Ishdorj By actually reading the letters (1.54.06) Luvsan Yeah, we glimpsed at letters in running, now you read it in one or two ways the аr and ekh so thus reading continuously you finish it. (1.54.14) Ishdorj okay Luvsan Well, we had to get up ourselves and bring the sutras Ishdorj In a day all the 108 volumes of the sutra Luvsan In a day, it would be set in row on the shelf.. Ishdorj The whole volumes of the Ganjuur Luvsan We used to take the sutras ourselves as well as from lamas sitting around. Ishdorj yeah Luvsan Our lamas used to say do not bring the book of Judi, [need to identify this - ck] there are too many tarni (dharani), we can’t finish reading. Hee hee hee. Ishdorj Ha ha Luvsan Well, yes it was a funny thing. But it was good. They say you could find one zindaa (classmates) in 300 koshuuns. This. at a later days, had probably grown into 300 households. Ours were of significant number of 277. To the end so many were killed that the number decreased to a level of lamas that could barely to serve 3 temples. And after many were sentenced to 10 years in jail the number dropped to barely 3 rows (number that could barely fill 3 rows in congregation hall). It appears that during one ceremony devoted to protective deity, a rich man from country side searched and arrested. (1 сайхан сахиусаар нэг хөдөөний баян хүн юм уу нэгжээд барьсан юм байна гэнэ билээ.?? The meaning of this sentence is not clear.) Ishdorj yeah Luvsan They were arrested. Whether the count was when they were brought after arrest is not known. I heard that 3000 lamas were killed after they were searched and arrested. They say that the number of amulets counted were 3000, the number reached more than 3000. Ishdorj Мn han Luvsan There was such an incident. Ishdorj Why was it called Saihan Gombo according (to legend)… Luvsan Oh, the last month of autumn is called Saihan Gombo. Ishdorj What's the reason for calling it this way? Luvsan Аа [sorry] Ishdorj What is the reason for giving this name? It is called Saihan Gombo, is it? Luvsan Yes, yes, yes. It happened during the journey of the second Bogd and Manzhir hutagt to Beijing (to have an audience with Emperor) that time. Ishdorj Мn hn. Luvsan There was no datsan that they knew before. It was the Manchir lamtan who informed earlier (the Emperor). We had elevated the first Bogd at his seat. And asked when and with whom we should bring to you the second Bogd. And we hope to have a familiar datsan. The reply was affirmative. Then he told to those in entourage if he (Emperor) asks who is the lama point towards me. If he asks who is the head gesgui point towards Bogd, towards the second Bogd. Ishdorj Аh haan. Luvsan So they embarked on their journey. Who knows they might have taken with them only 7, 8 lamas. The two high lamas had a small ger of 4 latticed wall. The rest had a shelter made of leather. So they went on and on. The two lama had a big entourage, including noy…noyan (prince of banner administration), clerks so on so forth. Who knows it appears that about 20, 30 people accompanied. So when they were in audience, the Emperor asked. Ishdorj yes (1.56.28) Luvsan So he addressed to first Bogd, the Dalai lama and asked, well, what congregation do you hold for worship? (1.56.30) We have Tsan datsan was the answer. Who did you appoint, who is the leader was the next question, so they pointed towards the Bogd. Ishdorj Аh haan. Luvsan So and so the audience went through. Then at that time there was one Janjaa gegeen (1.14.47), don’t know about him but it is said that he was the lama serving the Emperor’s throne. So they asked from Janjaa gegeen which protective deity (guardian spirit) they should invite and worship. The gegeen said your deity will come to you in person. Ishdorj Ah haan. Luvsan Наашаа яваад энэ Долоннуурын зах гэдэг дээр ирж байсан чинь тэр 2 ламынд нэг их хар морьтой нэг их хар хүн ирсэн гэж байгаа юм. Орж ирсэн. Нэр хэн бэ гэсэн. Гомбо гэсэн. Аа тэгээд наад 2 лам чинь идээ цагаа явчир, наана цаана гээд л одоо хүндлээд л одоо явсан юм биз дээ. Тэр нь мордоод явсан юм байна. Тэгэхдээр нэг шавь нь ороод. Үгүй танайх чинь хүн үздэггүй ээ? Таньдаг хүн үү? гэж. Энэ хүн хаашаа явж байна вэ гээд тэгсэн. Наашаа явж байсан. Ингэж суучихаад л сайхан Гомбо оо гэсэнOn their way back, at the edge of Dolonnuur a big layman on a black horse came to them. He entered their ger. Asked what as his name. The man replied Gombo. Oh the then two lamas said bring food, drinks and showed deep respect to him. Then he mounted his horse and left. One of the disciples came in and asked you people despise strangers but was this your acquaintance. Where was he going. He came to us and told us he was Saihan Gombo. Ishdorj Аа haan. Luvsan So we should present khadag to this Gombo said the lamas went after him… so four of them visited that Gombo at his home. Then a raven took the khadag in its beaks and flew away. A black bird. So it was that what they were told the guardian spirit would come in person. Ishdorj okay Luvsan So, it is (the story) how Gombo sahius was acquired. Ishdorj Мn haan. Since then recital of Gombo sahius began. And this was how the name of saihan Gombo was born. Luvsan It is a nice name. And it is nice, nice, nice. So the name Saihan Gombo is much better than just nice. Ishdorj Аh haan. Luvsan This what they say. Ishdorj So it was going on until now without interruption… Luvsan Аh, wonderful Ishdorj The recital of Saihan Gombo continues. Luvsan Yes, it is. You prepare food offerings, when there is a recital of saihan guardian spirit. Teachers would ask have you brought food offerings for the guardian spirit. So you always bring some offerings, no matter what. Ishdorj yeah. Luvsan You must bring the offerings. (1.58.16) If you passed Dondon jug then you must bring food offerings for congregation. Ishdorj Аh haan. Luvsan Oh, My teacher used to tell me to hold (1.58.21) a food offering to the sahius in your hands, and taste food offering to sahius is something very special. Ishdorj Аh haan (1.58.29) Luvsan So he told me about the Saihan. Ishdorj Аh haan. Luvsan The second Bogd had, congregation called Jand to be hold. I think there were not so many lamas may be 20, 30 who knows. Then, he could not continue the congregation in one summer… something did not work. Ishdorj Yeah. Luvsan Who knows what happened, may be the second Bogd intervened, I don’t know, don’t know.. Ishdorj Мm hn. Luvsan Well then, it happened that they had to bring their own provisions during the congregation. Ishdorj yeah. Luvsan They themselves Ishdorj Мm hn, yeah. Luvsan So to meet the requirement for provisions food offerings for saihan sahius was introduced. When someone comes to congregation food offerings for the sahius was collected. Ishdorj Тhen it was offered to the sahius. Luvsan Аа Ishdorj It was offered to the sahius, wasn’t it. Luvsan No, no, no. Ishdorj Ah, right. Luvsan Not offered. After the congregation, (the lamas) sit around and eat and get through it, then disperse. Ishdorj Ok Luvsan Just a little, very little, little. It could be just bits and pieces of (1.59.12) something. In general it was so. It could be (1.59.16) dried curds, and the like, it was distributed along the rows (of sitting lamas) and that was over, so just like that. Ishdorj As you said who said that the sahius will come in person? Was it Janjaa? Luvsan Janjaa gegeen Ishdorj It was Janjaa Khutagt Luvsan Yes, I said it was Janjaa gegeen. He was, apparently, the lama assigned to serve the Emperor’s throne. Ishdorj Аа yes, yes. Luvsan They had many protective deities and used to burn incense of purification very much. And found and brought a sahius from the west, and when… Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan I don’t know when it was. I forgot the name of the lama. Oh yes, the lama’s name was Baldansaavaaraa.. Ishdorj Okay Luvsan From the west, now it could be India. Ishdorj Аh haan. Luvsan He used to live in a cave and meditate. Water started leaking from ceiling of cave. He lived in that grotto many years and there were a lot dust, dirt. Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan When water leaked he turned them into dust but the water continued to trickle and leak. (2.00.15) Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan Who knows how many years he spent there. Eventually the piled dirt turned into Gombo sahius. Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan Then I heard the following talk. Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan Bal… this sahius now we have is that one. It is Baldansavaaryn Gombo. (2.00.31) that is its name. Ishdorj Yes. They call it Baldansavaaryn lavsh. Luvsan Ааn. Ishdorj So it was brought from the west and settled here. Luvsan It was how it had arrived here. A very precious Gombo, with special implications was brought. Ishdorj They say that it is still here. Luvsan It is there. Ishdorj It was during the demolition of that Dashchoimbol a man threw a khadag in the wind the khadag landed on one of the pillars of the temple. A khadag was tied to the pilar. When the khadag flew in wind, something at the rear also flew. When he inspected the rear Gombo sahius was there this what people say. Luvsan It was a time when secrets were kept. It was rumoured that the sahius of Dashchoilon had disappeared. Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan But it was there.. Ishdorj Мn hn. Luvsan People wondered how it disappeared. Well, then there was a pillar in the hall, that pillar. Ishdorj yes Luvsan A hollow was made in the pillar, the sahius was put and the hollow was covered by the same piece of wood, Ishdorj Аh haan. Luvsan it was left in that way. Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan As for the khadag who knows may be some slightly drunk workers were doing the job. So the Dashchoilin temple was pulled down and its wooden structures were transported to what is now the khashaan of service facilities. A man who was doing the job saw a khad…khadag protruding from a pillar. When took it out there was a burhan (statue of buddha). Without a word, he put it in his breast pocket, he told no one that there was a burhan. It was not a time to talk about such thing. Ishdorj yes Luvsan So he brought it to his home and kept it in a chest. Ishdorj Мn hm. Luvsan One man saw it and said that it was a sahius. It is the sahius of Dashchoilin. So it was kept in safe place for a long time (2.01.48) then the gesgui Banzaryn Tserentogoo(2.01.48) he was (2.01.50) … Ishdorj Аа Luvsan He was in prison. Ishdorj Well, was he put in prison even before the arrests began? (2.01.54) Luvsan Yes, even before that, in summer of 1937. Three nice temples were built by him and they were about open (2.02.04) its services Ishdorj yes Luvsan (2.02.05) when they were ready to start congregation on the next day soldiers from Ministry of Interior arrived and prohibited to organise a congregation. Ishdorj Аа haa Luvsan They were told to disperse. Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan So the Khamba lama of Gandan monastery argued why could they not have congregation just for one day. Also Dugar from adjacent to the north tsogchin temple, these two joined the squabble. Ishdorj Мm hn. Luvsan So the two were apprehended and taken away. Ishdorj yes Luvsan So they [soldiers of Ministry of Interior] were on watch out during the night, on the next day lamas of the temple if zuun aimags situated just further below the Jamraisag gathered to congregate (2.02.35). Gathered for the congregation. Ishdorj Okay Luvsan The head lama was arrested. His name was Banzragchiin Dovchin, he was sentenced to 4 years of imprisonment. Ishdorj Yes, аа haa. Luvsan Exactly for 4 years. Ishdorj Right Luvsan He was put in jail in 38. 39, 40, 41, and in 42 when 85 years old came out of the jail. Ishdorj So he was arrested even before the large scale arrests and releases Luvsan It was said he would be arrested but he was arrested anyway. Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan One person named Dugar was sentenced to 3 years Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan After being sentenced to 3 years while serving the prison term, for his good work, worked good after 2 years and 6 months he was released without serving the full 3 years in prison. Ishdorj Yes Luvsan After his release he was once again arrested and eliminated. Ishdorj Oh, right Luvsan So he was arrested again. Ishdorj Then he should have worked slowly and badly that way he could have survived. Luvsan If he did that way he must have survived. Ishdorj Hee hee hee Luvsan Well then that sahius was brought to Bandan Shonloo. Ishdorj Then Bandan Shonloo said that it was that very sahius. Luvsan Ааn. (2.03.26) Ishdorj That same person brought the sahius to Bandan Shonloo guai and showed him Luvsan Showed him and he said right, this is the sahius, so this Luvsan was told to keep it, that was it they say. Luvsan guai kept and kept. Then the congregation was reopened. So he sent a word I have something to give to you, it is a burhan. Come and take it. (2.1.47) So two of them went for it. Ishdorj yes. Luvsan They said it was a sahius called so and so. Ishdorj They probably went to Erdenepil khamba guai Luvsan Ааn.. Ishdorj They probably went to Erdenepil khamba guai Luvsan They probably did. Somebody was sent to. So they apparently brought it. It was kept in this Gandan. Ishdorj They say so. Luvsan In Dashchoimbol datsan, which recently was moved to north. That very sahius is housed. Ishdorj Мm hn. Luvsan They say it was brought to (the other temple). Probably someone before made a Choimbol. Ishdorj Yes, it was.. Luvsan Who was that Choimbol, who made it. Anyway, he was a Choimbol who knew that if it was not tied to the pillar it would disappear. Ishdorj Mm hn. Luvsan It is a guess that it was made by Choimbol. I don’t know for sure who made it. All Bogd were themselves Choimbol. The Sahius (Hymn to it) was recited during congregation. I don’t know. It was what Galaarid guai told me. 8th Bogd used to attend sahius recitals. He usually came in through the back door. Ishdorj yes. Luvsan He just came in through the back door without any air of importance and sat quietly (2.04.51) and tied his ribbons to the bell they say. Ishdorj Аа haan. Luvsan He spent night there in a manner of important person. Ishdorj Yes Luvsan There was an unzad (cantor, leader of recitals). Named Galsan. Ishdorj yes Luvsan It was the Bogd who made Galsan an unzad. Really that Galsan was a person of thievish manner. Ishdorj Mm hn. Luvsan So he made him a junior unzad of the Chogchin (the main) temple. Ishdorj Okay Luvsan Then the two (Bogd and Galsan) used to walk in street smoking and under the influence of alcohol. So people thought that this Galsan would not able to recite books. But he could recite a few books. Ishdorj Mm hn. Luvsan So Bogd used to enter through the back door and took the seat of honour. Ishdorj Mm hn. Luvsan This was it. When Bogd recently arrived [a reference to the visit of 9th Bogd or Dalai lama] he came in through the back door and attended the Chogchin congregation. (2.06.39) Ishdorj yes Luvsan Came in through the back door. [Тэгээд баригдаж?? Need to check the tape.] Ishdorj yes. Luvsan Well, this is the meaning of it. This is (2.05.47) what I can tell you about it. So, was it in the Gaaddamba goshoon, there was a painting depicting black bird holding a khadag. Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan In Dashchoimbol. Then it disappeared, it was no where. Then later it surfaced. I had no idea what it was all about, and where it was. In every goshoon there was such a burhan (god). I said that it could still be there. Then they found one over there to the north (of Gandan) Then Dagvadanzan guai and the other one, there was a gevsh here who had many disciples, can’t remember his name, oh yeah Ser-Od told me… Ishdorj Аа haan, yes. Luvsan (2.06.39) that this was such a precious sahius. Тhat was how I got to know about it. The old one (2.06.46) as well as the newly made sahius are now in Dashchoimbol. Ishdorj Аа haan.. Luvsan Yes, there is such a sahius in Dashchoimbol. That is it. In general, it was like this. Ishdorj Secondly, this Dashchoimbol existed since the days of 2nd Bogd until the 8th Bogd for 250 years, it is, yes. Luvsan Yes, they say 280 and some say 50 [250]. That is what they say. Ishdorj Mm hn. Luvsan It was built in 1937[sic: 1737]. Now it may be 280 years old or not I don’t know. In between, religion and recitals continued to develop. In the west many lamas passed the examinations and had been ordained. Their number grew rapidly many more lamas passed the examination (theological examination one has to pass in order to become full-pledged lama ) Ishdorj Ah, at the time when it was being founded... Luvsan Ааn.. Ishdorj At the time of its foundation? Luvsan Yes. There he studied... a lama of Dashchoilmbol datsan (2.08.19) Ishdorj Аа haan. Luvsan A lama called Agvaanbaldan was the first one who passed the theological examination. Ishdorj Right Luvsan And so it went on like that. When the first examination of lamas was held the Tasgany ovoo (The cairn of Tasgan) was erected. So many of them became very learned lamas. There were Agvaanbaldan tsorj (Tsorj is religious title conferred on lama who is in charge of training and other religious activities and functions, “master of law or rules), who passed the examination of tsorj so tsorj Agvaanbaldan, tsorj Baldan, Sumberinchin lama, Dorj, Ovgonkhuu, Sundeer, Chultem, Ishdorj Аviraa Luvsan Aviram Ishdorj Baldan Luvsan It is Avirambaldan. (2.09.00) Ishdorj Yes. Jamiyan Luvsan Jamiyan, Shijee, there was title Darkhan Shijee, have you heard about it? Ishdorj Well, yes. Shijee gavj. Luvsan That was the Shijee gavj. Tsend, Ovgonkhuu, Choisuren teacher, Beree [baton] Dondog, Undur Yondon, Juram Daram, Suul Dаrаm, Tsorj lama, Tsorj Samdan, Undur… Ishdorj Undur Jamts. Luvsan A man called Undur Jamts. He was a man known by the name undur Jamts. There were many others such as Jamts, Gavaa, Luvsandash, Tudev, Perenlei, Yondon, Hereed, Hereedman. Ishdorj Мm hn. Luvsan There were 4 Sandags, Damchaa, Garid (garuda) Samdan. Ishdorj Since which year was it under construction? Luvsan Well, it was in 1900’s, 1800 and something. The date and month of first construction was recorded. Saying it was built for the first time. It was closed in 1937, on its 105th year of function. Ishdorj Oh, ok Luvsan After 105 years lama courses and examination was closed. So, we are now proceeding on in this manner. We are the nearest (meaning the last) ones who had passed the exams. Ishdorj Аh haan. Luvsan Well, I am here, what is of me. There is a lama of the Baruun Khuree by the name of Luvsandash. Then there are Gendendaram, now that Tserendorj, Luvsandash, Gonchig, Jantsansambuu, Sodov, Have you heard about Doloon Baldan? Ishdorj Аа haa. Luvsan This is a seven day course for lamas(2.10.55) it is called Doloon Baldan. Then there was this Angi Dandar, this was a class of Dandar, Dandaryn angi of Khand Chin Van. Ishdorj Ah yes. Luvsan There are many who attended this course of Dandar such as Genden, Gendendaram I think, Genden, Dorjoo, Yadam, Sereeter, Gombojav, Gombajav, Sereeter. Surin (2.11.20) Sereeter stayed there (2.11.23) then that lama continued his learning here (meaning Gandan), some of them.... Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan There were two Sereeters, one of them was senior. They were both lamas. There were many others the two – Vaaanchig an Luvsan, Konoo Yondon etc. In the first group there were Sereenen, Navaantseren, Gonchig, Gonchigjav, one Geleg, Tavkhai, Jamts, Luvsan, Luvsandash, Jantsan, Jantsan, Nyantai, Damdin, Yroolt, Givaa, Ragchaa, Galdan, Sharav, Tsend, Dondog, Geleg, Jamts, Namkhai, Luvsan, Luvsansharav, Doriun Byamba, one huvilgaan tsorj, another huvilgaan Pelj. Ishdorj What else were you doing? Could tell about it? Luvsan Oh, eh. I went to Khovd in 1940, 40, and worked for 10 years in Khovd Artel, then another 20 years in (Agricultural) Cooperative. Eh, this is what I was doing. Ishdorj What did you do in Cooperative? Luvsan In cooperative I worked as store-keeper, as aj ahui. Ishdorj Ааn yes.. Luvsan For 20 years I worked in aj ahui. (2.13.04) Ishdorj How old are you now? Luvsan Now, I am 93, may be 94, reached that age. Ishdorj Do you still participate in congregations? Luvsan I go to congregation Ishdorj In which congregation do you participate, now? Luvsan Ааn Ishdorj In which congregation do you participate, now? Luvsan I participate in Dashchoimbol, Another person Choiryn hural. Luvsan Since I came here at age of 18 I congregated in Dashchoimbol. So I until today remained there. Sometimes I do congregate in Gandan. Now, I can’t congregate in Gandan.. The another person (present at the interview) - Dashchoimbol is Choiryn datsan (philosophical or theological) Ishdorj Oh, is it a choiryn datsan? Another Person Which was closed in 1937 and then.. Luvsan I have not studied books much . I tried my hands to a certain extent to master philosophy. Also a... Ishdorj Have you written any book or sutra? Luvsan Ааn. Ishdorj Have you written any book or sutra? Luvsan Nooo., No, No, No. I am not the one who write books and sutras.. Ishdorj Mm. Luvsan There are many lamas in Mongolia who wrote books. Ishdorj Yes. Luvsan A lama called Luvsandash wrote “Duuree, lama Sod wrote “Jundrai choi”. He wrote about the teacher of ours from Sungiin aimag called “Parchin”. He wrote that book. You will find that many other lamas wrote a lot of books. Ishdorj Is there anything that will you want to say now addressing the young lamas? Luvsan What can I say, learn your book diligently and attend well your congregations. At the end, I would say be good and diligent disciples. Nowadays, everything went somewhat awry, something has to be done. Nothing is left from olden days, it is all over. At present, there are many novice lamas. Some of these lamas have no knowledge about the hall of congregation (2.14.52). They should be told and taught about such things. Ishdorj What is your father’s name ? [Lit: Whose Luvsan are you?] Luvsan My name is Tsevegmidiin Luvsan.. Ishdorj Tsevegmidiin Luvsan. Do know a lot about your mother and father? Luvsan Ааn. Ishdorj Do you know about your mother and father? Who were they? Luvsan Аа my father and mother were herders, livestock breeders in the countryside. I don’t know much. (My father) was a good mannered, simple herder. Ishdorj Did you ever herd cattle?. Luvsan I had a few animals. In cooperative, I also had a few. Then I gave them all to the cooperative. Ishdorj I thank you very much. Luvsan Ok, Ok.. Ishdorj I wish you a long life (2.15.44) Luvsan Well, I just told some truth, some may be incorrect or wrong. Ishdorj My name is Ishdorj. I am… Luvsan You said Ishdorj. Ok Ishdorj Yes. And I work for IAMS. Luvsan Yes, yes, yes. Ishdorj I am very happy that we had this interview with you. Luvsan Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. If it is of any use to people, to our country Ishdorj Well, thank you.(2.16.08)