EN060402 Gandan; religion Gandan Interview, Person 1 Divaasambuu Ishdorj The Oral History of Twentieth Century Mongolia 2006-04 en XML Male Shiliin Gol 1927 060402 Ishdorj Well, Divaasambuu guai (a polite address, respected, esteemed ) we are now in your home, near the Gandan monastery, we came with an intention to interview you. You agreed. The essence of the work we do – the International Association for Mongol Studies in co-operation with the University of Cambridge, England - is collecting materials for “Oral History”. Such is the work we do. As for me I am the Executive Director of the IAMS and my name is Ishdorj. Well, there are some questions we wish to ask you first, and at the outset. Well, IAMS in Ulaanbaatar and University of Cambridge of England intend to keep in our archives the interview with you. Would agree to that? Divaasambuu Well, of course. Ishdorj And also your... Divaasambuu You can. Ishdorj Will you agree that the interview we’ll now take be used by someone, for instance for research? Divaasambuu Of course. Yes. Ishdorj Is there any need to keep your name in secret? Or not? Well, your.. Divaasambuu There is no need. Ishdorj OK. Divaasambuu There is no such a thing. Ishdorj Thank you. Well, then will you please tell us what is on your mind, and of course, first of all about your native land, your age and name and thus assist us? Divaasambuu Yes, of course. Well, my name is Baljidyn Divaasambuu . Born in1927. I was born in Baruun huuchid hoshuun of Shiliin gol aimag of Inner Mongolia. From childhood I was raised by my parents, there was the monastery of Huuchid Khambyn when I was 6 years old I started taking lessons from the shavran lama of the monastery, and was taught Tibetan. After being taught several years, I became literate, read books and at age 8 was ordained (received religious vow) and joined the congregation. When I joined congregation I could chant prayers, fully and correctly recite by heart everyday hymns as well as such books (sutras) as the Hangal. So I participated in religious ceremonies and chanted at tsogchin (main temple) until 11 years old. The monastery had mamba and zurhain datsan (a medical and astrological colleges). So I joined the datsan. Then, there starting from “The four fundamentals of medicine“ (Эмийн дөрвөн үндэс), basics of astrology were taught, there I continued to sit in congregation and received the vow of dechil at age 11 or 3 (thirteen). Then from 12-13 I continued to serve at Mamba datsan and learned by heart all the books that were chanted during congregation, when I joined at 11 Mamba I had already memorized Ih Manal, Chogjid shanlan and passed the exams and that is how I entered it. So when 12 or 2-3 (meaning 12or 13) I participated in creation of Manalyn, what is at present known as hot mandal, dulchin, now we find Manalyn dulchin, Gungregiin dulchin. When 14 I moved further to Zuun (Eastern) Abaga hoshuun (banner administration) of Shiliin gol aimag, this zuun abaga hoshuu was known as Beisiin or Zuun Beisiin hoshuun. There was a very big monastery – Monastery of Aya Zandan Bandid gegeen (an incarnate lama). When we arrived it had 1700 disciples. There I attended theology courses. I began studying theology and was taught from um dag cham du gunjid and learned by heart and then learned by heart ih jaa of choir (theory), and then we were through the last zindaa (religious class, grade) we attended the lagrag course in Choir of Seri to receive dev (rank) of Prin dichiin lagrag and then when I was 18 years old the great world war came. (0.04.52) Many Russians arrived and destroyed badly the monastery. What we had to do, in the meanwhile we somehow survived and came back to our land and stayed there. About the autumn Russian soldiers were leaving. The Russian soldiers had an understanding that everything over the other side of their border was Japanese. So thinking they were taken away the Japanese live-stock, they drove off livestock of our hoshun by large herds, took away everything with them. Then, the situation got very complicated, after the war, there were no administration nor anyone in charge. That was a hard time, Mongolian soldiers came from here and helped a lot. A detachment, the second detachment, the second detachment of Chono gol was stationed in on our land, those who served the Japanese or assisted them were all arrested and put in jail, those innocent were untouched. Since such disturbances were happening there we decided to move out, so all our hoshuu, Baruun Huuchdyn van was our hoshuu van, there was also Khamba lama’s khuvilgaan joined us and in autumn, on October 1 of 45 (1945) 3 bag (lowest administrative unit in province) ails (households) arrived in Zotol soum of Suchbaatar aimag presently the Erdenetsgaan soum. When we moved out we left our temples, took a few Buddha statues as well as rare and precious items, considerable number of books (sutras), on our way to here (Mongolia) we erected our gher on prairie and used hold regular prayer services, this is how we moved on. Actually Hambyn sum (Khamba monastery) had over 300 lamas. Half of them stayed back there and the other half came here and we spent the winter of 45 (1945) there. It was a time when Gandan monastery was reopened in 44 (1944). Then the border troop called on phone (to the centre) and informed that people with such a congregation (small temple on move), plenty of animals and very rich arrived, and there were almost 3 bags altogether. At that time our people had many herds of animals, it was a time when a man who owned 1000 sheep was not considered that much rich. We brought with us plenty of livestock. Then during winter the temple of prayer of Gandan sent Gabju Dambadarjaa who later had become my teacher with instructions to see if we congregate, what sort service it was and what we were at present doing, he also had brought letters of greetings from Erdenechuluun guai and Ganbat guai one to the Khuvilgaan bagsh (incarnate lama teacher), the other to the hoshuu noyan Danzan (the prince of the banner administration). (0.08.15) That lama arrived before the end of old year just before tsagaan sar (lunar new year). He met everyone, met common people, met lamas and since we were congregating here and there he participated in our prayers on the eve of the new year, on the fifth day (of the new year) and after tsagaan sar before leaving he said two persons from your group had been invited, your hoshuu noyan was inv.. invited but he insisted that he couldn’t go. It is necessary that at least one person from the temple, namely the Huvilgaan lama should go, he had been invited, but after a while the reincarnation of the previous Khamba Luvsan the 16 old khuvilgaan lama, and Zhambalkhaidav gesgui (proctor of temple) who was about 40 accompanied the lama back to this place (Ulaanbaatar), they spent 3 months here, and were treated as guests, they took them to central museum and went on sightseeing to other places, including museum of Bogd, visited theatre to enjoy songs and music. What was then the purpose of the visit? Amongst us we had the view that Outer Mongolia enjoyed high prestige in foreign countries, as for religion now it had a bad reputation, rumours about destruction of religion and books (sutras), arrest and execution of all lamas circulated far and wide, at that time, articles on this account appeared in Chinese newspapers. While young I also often heard about it. Then the arrival of so many labourers with plenty of livestock, and in such a force was of great importance to the soum (administrative unit) and to Mongolia. Therefore, it was decided to leave the child khuvilgaan as the head of the congregation (hural nom), let them continue without disruption their religious service, and that leadership for further improvement would be provided from Gandan. With this objective in mind it was proposed to the child lama of 16 year old to remain (as the head) he refused saying I came to Mongolia seeking for a simple life, and since I am not yet 18 this would be a breach of law. At that time, in one of the clauses of article 80 of the Constitution it was clearly stated that if a citizen of Mongolian People’s Republic had reached the age of 18 S/he had the right to pursue religious belief or to carry out anti-religious propaganda. So no permission was granted to him. Then Zhambalkhaidav gesgui (proctor of temple) was charged with the task and he was told you should now come back and continue to lead normally congregation and hold religious services. Find out how many lamas are there? And ask their opinions who and who wanted continue to serve in the congregation? Who will or will not congregate? Then in the first month of Summer my would be teacher Dambadarjaa gabju together with him arrived there. Upon their arrival they had organised meetings and gath.. gatherings at each and every bag. Let the people speak out and express their views on matters such as if they wanted to keep the congregation how it would be conducted? what should be done and how this should be arranged? Even after such a discussion over 100 lamas firmly said that they would continue the congregation, they’d put up their own ghers and also erect a big 10 walled gher which would be the premises for conducting congregation and religious service and rites, and produced a list of their names. After we came from south and when we were wintering Khandyn Gungaadorj, secretary of the aimag revolutionary youth committee came to us and carried out anti-Japanese propaganda, he told us the Japanese oppressed Outer Mongolia in such a such ways, because it was a time when the war had yet come to an end. (0.12.03) He told us everyday about history of our Mongolia, about life in Mongolia telling it was so and so, also about laws and rules and many other different issues. A huge felt pavilion was erected, where old Mongolian films were projected everyday, this was how propaganda and indoctrination work were conducted. About the same time when winter provisions were made, hides and skins, and briskets were piled, these were bought for state procurement by 2-3 salesmen from cooperatives, who changed them for goods, well, at that time, there were almost no goods at all, no silk or crepe, some brick tea and daalimba (cotton cloth), some white coloured cotton sheets that’s it, there were candles and matches, the matches were of flat stick only. Life was like that during those times. So after the meeting and lamas were registered, during the autumn a small temple was erected (by connecting ghers) and it was decided that lamas would live together instead of being scattered here and there, over ten ghers were put in place, some lamas alleged that they lived far away and could not now move and join them but would come during the next spring, some of the younger lamas said that they would not now congregate, instead they would work in this bag or soum, and engage in caravan transport for living or came forward with some other excuses, so only 15 to 16 lamas continued to congregate and hold religious service. During that period one by name of Shagdar served as the Deputy chairman of the Aimag Executive Administration. Bekhkhyag who was the secretary of aimag department (representative of the Ministry of Internal Security?), himself, as well as veterinarians, medical doctors and many others arrived during the autumn and told us that the lama who was here reported to Gandan that we were for continuation of congregation and holding religious services, and asked why did we want it. Aimag executive council was informed that we wanted to continue worship and religious service, it had also received instructions from the government that measures should be taken to respect sentiments of those who expressed their wish to worship and not offend them, if we had religious faith, let us cong… congregate and practice our worship, do not prevent us doing it. This was the directive. Accordingly these people arrived and organised meetings at each bag and announced that such and such lamas had registered their names. In all there were over 100 lamas, and asked where were they now? They must be congregating and serving at this religious ceremonies now. Then it turned out that some of the lamas left for other places like Dornod aimag, some even to Suchbaatar aimag to work, some were working in mines. At that time there was the Chono gol mine, Chono gol mine named after Choibalsan, there was such a mine. So over 70 lamas gathered in the spring of 46 or 7 (1946 or 7) at the lower slope of a mountain named Ender khamar and were conducting religious ceremonies and congregation. Lamas from Gandan frequently visited us now Yadam guai lam came in 8 (1948), Dambadarjaa gabju visited in 47 (1947) and organised our work, all the documents, financial accounts and all other activities were carried out according to the rules and practices followed at Gandan. And we were also affiliated to Gandan. The reason, why it was done that way, is connected to the following, during that period 6 small temples (a group that could congregate while on move) arrived , in different aimags including Sukhbaatar. (0.15.42) The congregation of Khovd arrived in 45 er... in 44. Congregation of Bulgan soum of Khovd came from Xingjian, eh..eh.. Zuun Uzemchin, Dorj noyan’s congregation of Zuun Uzemchin, Dorj noyan brought (to Mongolia) with him his entire hoshun and the congregation. Eh eh From Barga, from this present Eastern barga aimag, from Holenboor aimag, entire soum I think zuun (eastern) hoshuu of Barga baruun (western) hoshuu, and many lamas headed by Getseg hamba migrated to Dornod (aimag) and there was this Holenboor soum. 2 congregations called that of Dilav Hutagt came to Dornogivi (aimag), the group of lamas belonged to congregations of Baldan zasag (ruler or banner prince) and of Tushee gun. Lamas of Baldan zasag were stationed in house of, in zuun eh…in Dut soum of Dornogovi. As for that of Tushee gun’s group it was stationed in Khar-Airag soum. So in all 6 congregations had arrived. Therefore, province party, the party committee of aimag and Executive Administration sent letters to the capital and asked the following questions. Who would govern these congregations ? It is impossible for us to govern them, what should we do with these numerous lamas? Well, then decided let’s make Gandan, consecrate the prayer temple and make Gandan centre of religious activities. Since it is situated in Ulaanbaatar, in the capital city let’s call it the centre of religion. So in May 1947 Gandan received 5 silver seals, eh… and it had become Gandantegchinlen monastery the central administration of religion, prayer temple was from the beginning thus converted. So lamas from here(Gandan) went to the six congregations and led them we in turn sent to Gandan on quarterly basis all our financial accounts and records, people from Gandan regularly visited us, the time was like that. So Gandan seized to be prayer temple received a big silver seal with the following inscribtion: Centre of Religious Administration in Ulaanbaatar, Centre for Religious Administration in Gandantegchinlen Monastery. It was a period when it (Gandan) had no external contacts. Originally Gandan had lamas, many lamas. In 45 our soldiers arrived in Abaga hoshuu, specially soldiers from border detachment wo… worked in every hoshun. Then they picked up all those who had been assisting Japanese, or who served as Japanese police and the like, that was their mission. During that time in Baruun Abaga, at present not far from our border, there was a big monastery called Shillin tsagaan ovoo. The headmaster of the Shillin ovoo was a famous lama named Gelen of Shiliin tsagaan ovoo. Later he had been elevated to be a religious leader, leader of Chinese religion. It turns out that that when he was young the lama was residing in this Khuree (lamasery) and moved south to his country either in 31 (1931) or 2. Then he was attending the same religious class group with Ha… Hamba Erdenepil. Since he was one of the classmates of Erdenepil er er.. the lamas collected money from every group and requested him have a Khot mandal made there if he was going to the south and gave the money to him. When he had that order made for him and was about to leave the borders were closed so was religious freedom and everything else. So that lama brought the khot mandal with him kept it there. The were commanders of the border detachment by name of Tserendorj and later Shagdar he went to them (the gelen) and asked: (0.19.36) Has the Gandan congregations and religious service? They answered: yes, there is congregation. Gandan was reopened in 44. Oh is it so. Who is in charge of it? The Khamba is a gabju by the name of Erdenepil, Gombodoo is the gesgui (temple proctor). Oh, that Erdenepil is from my group, oh I would send a letter and he sent the letter explaining that I arrived (in Mongolia) that year and since then we had lost any contact. I had made a big Khot Mandal of Duinkhar, I would now like to give it to you, I had kept it for many years, would you come and take it? Gombodoo and the rest were overjoyed (upon receiving the letter) saying there was indeed a need to develop foreign relations, and it was the time to start it, so the permission to do so was granted by the government. From here a buriad man who was a manager at Gandan, a very learned Borjigin gevsh (title of learned lama) Ishtavkhai, these two went to get it, they reached Shiliin tsagaan ovoo met the Gegeen and on behalf of Gandan invited him. They reached our border in horse carriage, carrying with them the Duinkhoryn mandal, a vehicle from Gandan welcomed them on the border so he (the gegeen) arrived in summer of 1947 during the Naadam celebrations, they were the first high level (religious) delegation to visit Mongolia. He was the gegeen of Shiuliin Tsagaan ovoo and his name was lama Jamyanlegshidjantsan. How we came to know it? When we were congregating at Ender Khamar our gesgui Jambalkhaidav and Jambal lovon were invited to visit here (Ulaanbaatar) during the naadam celebration. Gandan used to invite during the naadam 2-3 person from each temple. These two who visited (Gandan) during the naadam and told us afterward, we were living to the west of Shil… Tsa... Shiliin Tsagaan ovoo, not far from him but we never thought of paying respect or seeing him but it happened that we were to pray to him at the Gandan, he was at Gandan on its invitation, that was what they told us after coming back as a piece of news. So the gegeen came here and visited Duinkhoryn datsan and now it (the khot mandal) is placed in Duinkhoryn datsan of Gandantegchinlen that is it. This big Duinkhoryn datsan which had been made in…thus arrived in year 7 (1947). Then in 48 I don’t know the year, don’t remember well, I was not, but in 49 from our temple 2 persons were invited, so I was told to go, when I was 14 I started learning old Mongolian script and was a little bit literate, after coming (to Mongolia) I had also learned the new script (Cyrillic), that is who I was. That is why I was doing all accounting and recording work of our temple. So myself and an old lama, one of our lovon lamas by name of Jambal, two of us were told to go to naadam celebrations at the invitation of Gandan, so we began the travel. At that time we travelled by horse relay stations, mm.. we were about 4 urtuuns away ( distance between stations is about 30 km) from the aimag centre, we travelled two urtuuns (stations) and spent night at of one the stations. There were many students of our secondary school there, students of vocational schools, they were travelling southward during their summer vacation .(0.22.52) Well, the attendants of the relay station got worried, they talked to each other 20 children had arrived, would we have enough horses, we have to saddle 20 horses tomorrow morning. Then when we met early in the morning those children they told: Oh, yesterday, a lorry Zis-5 of your Gandan with a fat driver accompanied by a lama and a layman speeded to the border. So we found out that but Jambal lamba guai of ours was kept saying no, no they are lying what a vehicle of Gandan would be doing here? So what we were to do we continued our journey that morning to the next relay station. That station was rather far away, Su..er.. Suvraga urtuu (station), it was extremely hot, we were standing at a well watering our horses, then suddenly we heard sound of an approaching vehicle, I looked up and saw that a vehicle, packed with many inner Mongolian lamas, was driving past, they were the lamas from Bandid Gegeen, we, I congregated and I knew many of them personally. They all cried out this is that very Divaasambuu, that very Divaasambuu, there were my classmates of religious group among them. When they passed thus shouting, I got extremely emotional, I was 22 then, without thinking a thing run after them. Jambal lama was saying don’t, don’t, I did not obey him and wishing to see my friends run and run then after travelling a bit the vehicle stopped on the road side. When I approached and met them the lamas showered me with questions, was I still a lama, and where I was living , whether we had congregation, how about you people etc., those foreigners assumed that once we migrated to the north we were all done for. They all embraced and kissed me, there was quite a bit of commotion. Then those travelling with us, the station attendant and Jambal guai approached bringing my belongings. They (those on the vehicle) asked us what we were going to do. We told them that we got invitation from Gandan and going to see the naadam. One men said send your horses back now, well, er …you should now sit on the vehicle. Ha ha. There was a layman on the lorry. It was him who said this, he was Dash, he was secretary of the Government delegation. A lama by name of Luvsanpurev was travelling with them. Fat Tsogt was the driver, we sat on the vehicle, on our journey we deviated considerably in order to dodge populous areas such as soum centres. We did not travel through that step (?) at that time it apparently was undesirable to show that many lamas from abroad and the rest travelling this way. Then approaching Khentii aimag we also detoured Khentii after moving north for some time night fell and we slept, next morning resumed our journey and arrived in evening here (in Ulaanbaatar). Just to the south there was the street of “malchny 2” (Herders Street No.2). There were quite a number of khashaa (fenced enclosures) owned by Gandan , many big ghers were erected there for guests from abroad to provide lodging for them, ghers were dismantled afterwards. (0.25.41) Then Gombodoo guai, Erdenepil guai and others all of them welcomed us, offered tea, food and airag (fermented milk of mare) after a while one lama entered and said well, now our 2 lamas would come with me, we erected a gher in the khashaa just behind this so 2 of us settled in this ..this... this western khashaa for storing firewood. This khashaa was very large, there were many ghers there, 6 for lamas, 6 for each congregation from countryside, some of the lamas had already arrived, some of them. So we stayed here. Then we did just that, saw the naadam. Naadam celebrations were held at that very Yarmag (meaning public show or exhibition, site of the celebration until 1960). An wrestler whose name was Ayush zaan (Elephant) from air force won the contest and Avraga (titan) Batsuuri lost, it was that naadam. Well, the naadam was over. Now it was time for all those who came to get back. That time lamas came from many different places. Why, because from Bargyn Ganjuur 2 men came one Zandan shireet who lived abroad and Menget Dambii. Well, then 2 lamas each came from Yellow sea and Badgar, 5 lamas from Bandid gegeen khiid, one Luvsandemchig came from Shiliin tsagaan ovoo. In general considerable number of, for the very first time so many lamas came from abroad. Generally until then no such thing happened. Well now the naadam was over, after the naadam I think on 17th or 8th there was a congregation to chant Khangal, many lamas were present, those lamas and also lamas of Choir gathered and held religious service and did this and that. Gombodoo guai there, ikh gesgui Rimchindorj guai on the right, they were seated on the chairs with… (decoration or cover?), these chairs are now at Dashchoilin temple, two of these were put there. There was one Lluvsanjamiyan who was the representative of the government he was present and seated there. So we had hold a religious service, we were told that a day after tomorrow of that congregation Barga representatives went back, also that of what did return, we found out that vehicle from our Gandan were bringing them to the border. Lamas of our own country, in general, went back by 20th. Since there were no Khailan which started around July10 or 21 in congregations of countryside, I decided attend khailan service here and wrote a petition to allow me to return after khailan and received the permission to do so. Then our old lama went back, I stayed behind, attended khailan congregation and after the finish of khailan in the beginning of September returned. While I was still here (in Ulaanbaatar) one big event took place. The present government house was still under construction, theatre was built so was the cinema theatre. The building of the city Executive administration and monument of Suchbaatar were in place, then there was a kind of (platform) thing of City council and Executive administration. A semblance of platform well even there is one such thing today. Bosses used climb up it and deliver speech. It was August 1 or 10th we, all lamas of Gandan went to there, they told us that an important event would take place at government squire, we had no idea what it was. Then it was the inauguration bus transportation service. (0.29.11) Well, now horse relay stations were being replaced, Bumtsend guai, a moustached man stood in the centre, and Choibalsan, Yamjmaa, Damba darga, Surenjav were present and standing (at the platform). Tsedendamba er..Tsedenbal was not seen there at this time. Then Bumtsend spoke. He said that horse relay stations from the time of Ogiedei khaan existed in Mongolia over 700 years, today our people’s government introduced buses and thus replaced it. Well, at that time vehicles named Molotov and 51 stood on the right and left sides as well looking to west si… and on the right several small so called Polutereg (vehicle that could carry only one and a half ton weight) started to circle (the squire). Then A, B, first from the eastern corner a vehicle with red banner on the front with the word Arkhangai inscribed started to move and took the road, after it Bayankhongor (vehicle) hit the road. So for each aimag 8 vehicles, may be 7 vehicles were leaving. Then ha ha ..to Suchbaatar city, on plate numbers of the vehicles of Suchbaatar there were letters SB, on plate number of our Suchbaatar there were letters SU so vehicles with these numbers headed for their destination, that was how it happened. I was a witness of these events of that period, it was interesting. I left Gandan arrived at aimag thinking that now there were no more horse relay stations and I would reach home comfortably by a car, but because of shortage of vehicles in the most isolated south eastern Urt and Zotol , in 2 western most soums of Dariganga and Naran relay stations were not abolished. So I had to travel back home in a horse cart. In 49 for the first time I visited Gandan, then became a disciple of Gandan, then in 50, 51 during this and that happening always visited, In spring of 50 during the Amgalan (ceremonies to ask for peace and wellbeing of superior lamas) I came to Gandan. Every congregation send representatives to Gandan and to the centre to express their respect . Usually 2 persons on some occasion only 1 would come. That winter, there was a severe zud (natural calamity associated with cold and heavy snow), snow fall was very heavy, just after tsagaan sar, on third day of the new month I was told to go, you should learn to visit Gandan and come back, you are young and you should go they told me. So I used to come for amgalan, you enter during hymn chanting carry a long khadag on your hands, visit Gandan, Dugan and every manjin and then you announced loudly that Lovon lama of Denduvlen hiid in Zotol soum of Suchbaatar aimag and its many priests convey their greetings of the new year and wish peace and tranquillity and handed over the khadag to the Khamba. Ha, ha. Then in spring of 50, and in 51 I also came on assignment. In the meanwhile our lamas in countryside all joined and started construction of a mud temple, everyone was of the view that gher temples were inconvenient during rain and wet, so they joined together and completed construction of a relatively large mud … mud temple. So from Gandan now this Danzan guai of ours and Shadav guai came and examined our accounts, and said we would, do eh.. a thing, give you sheet iron, for roofing the house, eh.. temple of yours. Wood was scarce in countryside the temple had round stone floor, they promised to give wood (thin plank) for floor. So I came in 54 and took away one lorry full of wood. I think it was in 56 I came and took one lorry of sheet iron. So, in this manner we were doing. Then I was coming almost every year, from 49 on I might have missed 1 year, or may be not, don’t remember. Then in 57, 58 yeah in 56 Gandan received an invitation to 2500th anniversary of Buddha to be observed all over the world.(0.33.32) It said: we in India would observe the date on 15th of the first month of summer. In spring a man by name of shar (tawny) Dugar came to our congregation. Eh.. I found out that our Dambadarjaa gabju went to Barag and Ujemchin congregations, Danigai guai went to this south govi congregation. Galaarid guai went to Khovd congregation. To observe that what (the anniversary) in advance, two months earlier in spring Shadav guai told about it and said that 2500th anniversary of Buddha would be observed, then after hearing the news old lamas cried, saying being so old and before dying to hear this news was such thrilling thing for them. And since for so many years they had been persecuted this came as something of a shock. So for what (celebration) in centre several lamas were invited from each and every temples, 3 person from our congregation headed by Jambalkhaidav gesgui came. In our temple we set up a commission for celebration of the 2500th anniversary and I was appointed as a member, so we held a solemn ceremonial congregation to observe the 2500th anniversary of Buddha. That time what we did was, the following. We did not learn to recite prayers in Mongolian. Actually, when in 44 Gandan reopened er.. 7 persons Erdenesuren guai, Gombodoo guai established the congregation here. And when they petitioned Baga Hural (legislative assembly) they wrote we’d reopen our congregation, as of now we would continue to hold the services in Tibetan language but eventually we would chant the hymns and hold congregations in our national language, this was their petition. So keeping in mind that assurance and unfulfilling it would be tantamount to deceiving the government, since 47(1947) religious services were held in Mongolian. It started with Getseg Vandan davjaa (0.35.41) which was chanted for a while, then the next year tui was chanted (in Mongolian) after a year Dari ekh was read and when I came in 49 a number of sutras were chanted in Mongolian that’s how it was. So until that date in Mongol Gandan we could not chant prayers in Mongolian language so to observe the anniversary we decided to chant Gansum a hymn to the Buddha in Mongolian and we all learned it by heart before the 2500th anniversary and thus we started to chant Gansum in Mongolian from day of the anniversary. Such and such events were happening. Then in 59 movement for cooperatives had been successfully completed and lamas and laymen alike all had become members of the (agricultural) cooperatives. Then the cooperative whenever something to do crop up would mobilize us such menial jobs as combing cashmere goat, when autumn comes send harv…to harvest grain, being a member of cooperative you have to work for your cooperative, if a member of cooperative wants to move to some other place then the issue must be discussed at the meeting of members of cooperative and decide on the transfer, such was the stringent rule, it was a hard time due to these constraints congregations and services were disrupted. We were forced to work for months on cooperative construction sites, in autumn for 2 months we worked in land farms so able bodied lamas were engaged in physical work and only a few feeble old lamas stayed behind, trying hard not to let religious services to close, we had to face that and this difficulties. It was a time when Ikh Het congregation of Dornogovi came and joined Gandan in 52, deteriorating situation in countryside forced Khovd congregation to join the centre in 54. In 60 2 congregations of Dornod also joined Gandan. (0.37.53) Then in 60 we received a letter from Gandan, what did it say? It said that such a such congregations due to difficulties in the countryside came to Gandan and joined it, if your congregation decides to do the same you may give your application. Well, we had no other option so we wrote the application and sent it. Then we were told that only 4 lamas from a congregation would be admitted (to Gandan), no more were ad.. allowed, in general a group of 4 lamas is considered as a congregation, it had been set down in this way long ago in dulbaa. Therefore, only 4 lamas were to be admitted as for the rest since they were members of (agricultural) cooperatives it was of no concern, so what was impossible was impossible, rules did not allow, that was it. Even before there was yet another difficult problem if ask me what was that? We all arrived from the south, we were poor and all resided at the temple we had no families. There were a number of young lamas who had been subjected to various pressures, authorities demanded why they were not marrying? Etc. then a new tax was introduced for those who had no children. Cash was rare in countryside an ordinary lama received 15, was it, oh yes, yes so it was almost like not receiving salary at all, if each one received 20 tugrugs it was a fortune, then if 6-7 were deducted from the 15 as tax for not having a child what was left. We encountered these difficulties for 2,3 years. Then people from aimag would come, judges from court would come and organised meeting and questioned why we were not marrying. They would say that in our Constitution there is no provision discriminating you etc. then they would refer to the provisions of criminal law which contained various provisions. In particular in article 23 there were many different clauses which were often brought up so at the end we had to marry. There was no other option. We had to marry under pressure. There was a need to do that because of the repression. So in 60 it (Gandan) informed that it would take 4 persons from our temple. A lama by the name of Vaanchig was congregating with me, we two wrote a letter both to Danigai guai and our Dambadarjaa gabju and asked them to keep in mind so that we were included in that list of 4 lamas. The cooperative wanted us to work for it, on hearing the news we were going to joi… join (the centre) they had already allocated certain workplaces for us, saying he would do that the other would be in charge of that etc. A man by the name of Divaasambuu remained behind we’ll appoint him as …what, I forgot what it was thus work was allocated to us already and people were talking about it openly. I was trying hard to forestall separation from congregation and books (sutras). So 4 person were to come (to Gandan) the our Dambadarjaa gabju arrived with a letter from Gandan. I wrote my petition immediately after his arrival, and after the letter was received, may be the next day or the day after tomorrow anyway as soon possible. (0.41.34) He said now we received your petition, you did the right thing now your congregation would join the north congregation (meaning Gandan which was in the north), meeting of all the lamas was organised and 4 persons (lamas) were to come but two old lamas who were to come with fell ill and could not come. So only two of us had to move to this side (to Ulaanbaatar) we asked from sta… agricultural machine station 2 vehicles, in one dump truck we spread out felt on its floor and loaded all our books on the other we loaded all statues and shrines so with the most important items in these two lorries we brought them here. The other lama stayed here but I had to go back again wrap up everything there. I gave to cooperative all our livestock free of charge according to the latest animal census, so what we gave to the cooperative: all the livestock, houses and khashaans and properties remaining there, properties of the temple such as monastery, temples and everything else we owned. We arrived here, office of the representative of the government was situated in a tile roofed house on a plot facing eastward just before the Geser sum, on south eastern side of Shii Yanj (Chinese theatre). Now, I forgot the names of some of persons. The first was (government representative) Luvsanjamiyan then came some one who…he stayed only a few days. Yeah, his name was Dagva, the name of his successor now did not come to mind, sometimes it surfaces into the mind then I again forget it. That representative summoned me and asked: 4 men were supposed to come from your congregation, why only 2 persons are coming? I explained so and so and why the two old lamas told us they could not come. He then said: are there two more persons, Tell me? Is there any person who expressed his desire to you? I replied of course “yes”, there are two lamas Dambiinyam and Dambapeljee they were asking us if possible to include their names in the list, they also repeated their request before we left to this side. He said write down their personal history, age, what do they own, what they did, whether they have the rank of gelen or getsel? And this and that. Well, I wrote down the personal history of two and gave it to him. He said to me: Come tomorrow, take a letter. I replied ‘yes”. His name was Denjenvanjil guai. When I did what said he gave me a big boo…envelope and said give it to the Executive Administration of aimag on your way to your soum. And you should bring … by all means bring the two lamas by the next car. I came to the Executive Administration of aimag the chairman of the Executive administration was not there, and met the 1st secretary by name of Chuluunbaatar, I gave it to him, he read and said that is right, of course you should do this in this manner, so did you give houses, fenced plots er.. monastery and temples, livestock and all your belongings free of charge to the cooperative of Zotol soum? I said yes we did give everything. He said is it so. Well, well as for the 2 I’ll give a letter to chairman of the soum. He wrote the letter gave it to me, I delivered the letter and said dispatch the two men now (with me) the aimag gave such instruction. (But he said) they are now on the farm, the time to plant has not come, we’ll send them after cultivation. So they could not go. Then I handed over our livestock, we had plenty of animals, according to the census list, after accepting our livestock they demanded that we should complete the shortfall of planned output of milk, camel hair, you should fulfil the plan fully they insisted. (0.45.08) What we can do, we had a little money, so by that money bought camel hair and milk, made contracts to supply them and covered the shortfall fully. Well, then I received the document certifying that we gi.. gave our livestock to the cooperative and collected the payment for the milk and meat, a substantial amount was collected, deposited the money in bank of aimag as we usually did and I came to aimag. So I went to the Executive administration, there Chuluunbaatar darga asked me whether the 2 lamas had left? I said: No they did not, they sent them to grain field and told me that they would send them after the work was done. If it is so, he said, I’ll be going there day after tomorrow, and send the 2 lamas, how can they do it? We have received a letter from the government. We should send them out immediately. Ha ha.. So I was waiting at the soum, they arrived, followed by many official (Gaz) 69 cars. It caused a bit of commotion among the soum people. They (aimag officials) stopped at soum communication office and started a meeting, about 2 hours passed. After long wait when it was over … before he was about to lea… leave I met him. Chuluunbaatar said, hey, sit in my car we are going to the grain field and arrived at the field. They said we’ll send the 2 lamas right away so we came to the field. When we arrived night was approaching, darkness fell. He was calling the leader of the brigade. Hey, … are you there? Bring that Dambadarjaa, and Dambiinyambuu immediately, bring them here. Give them to this man, …we’ll dispatch them, to north (meaning to the capital). Ha ha.. poor guys, their boots were worn out, deels (gowns) of the two were in rag and tags, and the two came all covered with dust. So about midnight I met them and brought back. We had two more lorry load of baggage I sent it, with them to here (Gandan), I had not finished financial accounting work and stayed behind to wrap up so I could come back only in October after completing the work. We had 6000 tugrugs deposited in bank, so now remitted the 6000 tugrugs to Gandan’s account and only after that I returned. As for me this is a story of mine. Ha…ha. Ishdorj Well after that? Divaasambuu After that nothing special happened, as for me now I had come here, so I started congregating in Gandan, we, 4 of us, joined the congregation. I almost …Dagva… there was a khamba by name of Dagvadorj khmaba, he and myself worked for 3, 4 years as bookkeepers. At that time many of our lamas were working in Erdene zuu, starting from 61. Our Gandan gave 3 million tugrugs for the repair (restoration) of Erdene zuu, then some of these many stupas were almost non-existent from here and there, and to restore them many lalas went from here in several groups, in all 4 brigade worked over there. These were brigade of Tumur-Ochir, brigade of Hongoruu Damba, brigade of lamas, a brigade consisted of over twenty persons. (0.48.19) There was one Chinese brigade, headed by a Chinese by name of Barbun (0.48.26), these 4 brigades were working. So we always send cement and this sort of things, well then there were no telephone links or any other means of communication, all message were conveyed through people. Hey, we are short of cement, send cement quickly. We wanted to send cement but the old the Zis-150 which was in bad shape had broken down, and another 50, well, we had 2 polutereg (vehicle with could carry one and half ton), they were in extremely bad shape, we had no transport. That time Denzenvaanjil guai was no longer the government representative and Undyn Puntsag guai, Partisan Undyn Puntsag guai had been appointed as our government representative. So apparently khamba lama told Puntsag, that now this and this was happening. Well, then one morning, think in beginning of 63. May be 2, yeah in 2, khamba summoned me. So when I came to him he said, go quickly and do that. Take 2 driver, take 10 litres of gasoline for each as well as ropes and go the office of the religious council. We came there, Puntsag guai was there, one called tall Samdan of Ovorkhnagai was his secretary. He said to Samdan the garage down there would give 2 vehicles, go and take them, secondly, if we don’t take that …vehicles and the cement by tomorrow, work would stop. Well, they gave a CA-10, for the other 150.. 64, so Adilbish drove CA-10, Gurjav 164, the next day they received the cement headed towards (Erdene zuu). This is how thing were running then. That time there was another important issue. Khar airag congregation of the Govi was not disbanded and joined us. Our that very old teacher was there. Teacher would come occasionally and return. We would ask are you coming? He would say no, not yet, we have quite a few livestock, we have to do something about it, if don’t do it we can’t come, we have not been able finish with that. Then teacher would meet khamba and return. Tumur-Ochir was a secretary of the Central committee of the party. Then he had a monument to Chingis built in Gurvan Gol. He also told whenever we visit Erdene zuu with many (foreign) guests they often ask us accusingly what had happened to this congregation? what had happened to the lamas? There are 60 lamas in Govi. Let’s transfer these 60 lamas with their belongings to Erdene zuu. And a decision was made to open its congregation. Even today people talk how while in Dornogovi Tumur-Ochir visited the congregation, personally saw and studied situation thoroughly. Even Chimeddorj had known it. That’s why the congregation was holding back the issue. It was thought that they would remain there, until they could be moved to Erdene zuu, it was so. It was planned that our Dambadarjaa gabju and Osor guai would be appointed Dambadarjaa gabju as the khamba, Osor guai as the Gesgui. So they …. bu..bu… moved their own ghers (to Erdene zuu). When asked why and where are they moving? They replied that they were going to lead and monitor the numerous people working on the repair of Edene zuu, they went there under this pretext. Then probably during the Lenin subbotnik (voluntary public work) of April of 63, was it on 22, or which day? (0.52.05) We were given the task of planting 5 trees on the south west of the present Exhibition hall, further to east exactly on the western side of Natsagdorj monument Tsedenbal darga was planting trees so we were carrying soil on our two vehicles then an old man of the Exhibition, some one duty was calling loudly, hey, is there anyone from Gandan? Come here, your khamba is calling, he wants to speak to you on phone. I came running, our Gombojav guai said to me, take the two vehicles, in addition 1 or 2 more from TT garage and with 4 lorries go to wagon (railway) station, the congregation of govi arrived , now the railway is demanding unload quickly, it is a catastrophe, be quick. We came at the station, well, dargas (bosses) all of them had arrived, so we loaded then when the time came to unload there were no khashaans (fenced encloses or plot of land), their ghers were put ga… in ”Malchny No.2”, in Sharavsambuu’s khashaam in our khashaans, everwhere, some ghers were erected their doors looking eastward, thus crammed in every khashaan, on western side some of cargo was unloaded, also more than ten lamas arrived. Then from the next day or may be day after tomorrow the case of Tumur-Ochir broke loose, whenever radio came alive it spoke about Tumur-Ochir, whenever radio spoke it was about Tumur-Ochir and his accomplices. (in Mongolian it was wrongly transcribed as “tumur utasny khereg” as if there was a case of “iron wire”. In fact Party secretary Tumur-Ochir was branded as a nationalist and expelled from his post for building the monument to Chingis Khaan and organizing a meeting to observe the 750th anniversary of his birthday which according to the political bureau of the party extolled the virtue of “the bloody conqueror”.) Originally, it was a right thing to do, Erdene zuu would have had a congregation. Then our 2 lamas, after spending a year there, returned transporting their ghers. Ha .. ha.. Such a such events took place. Well, then all gathered around Gandan, now lamas coming from here and there to Gandan, number of lamas we had considerably grew. In autumn of 60 Gombojav guai took the seat of khamba and made changes in the administration. Chairman of the administration received the title of khamba, Gombodoo guai became the deputy chairman. There were almost no staff, our Osor guai was made the secretary, their office was at the Geser sum, that was so and so. Then a meeting was convened in the great gher. There it was said that before when there were many lamas, we were divided into sections. There were arvan (ten) as a section then zindaa (one religious class) as a section. At present there is no zindaa, since there was no time to be in one religious class, there is no such thing, so let’s organise the arvans (tens). That time our Gandan had 105 lamas. So 7 arvan were set up, 1st arvan of Erdenepil, 2nd arvan of Gombodoo,3rd arvan of Garansed guai, 4th arvan of Bat-Ochir guai, 5th arvan of Dagvarenchin, 6th arvan of Galaarid, 7th arvan of Luvsan. The arvans were named by these 7 lamas, thus we put in place the arvans. Well, the arvans were organised, at that time we had to work constantly, we would prepare firewood for Gandan or else we receive from o.. district plan for haymaking, during the autumn allocation for picking berries etc, etc. So lamas in groups as well in arvans would take up these duties and work. Then, it was said that arvan should have a person in charge called the coordinator, so the question whom to elect rose. Well, 1st arvan elected Luvsangombo, 2nd arvan elected Dashzeveg, 3rd arvan elected Sonopmpil, 4th arvan elected Baldorj, 5th arvan elected me, 6th arvan elected Dorjjhantsan, 7th arvan elected Dambadorj, thus 7 persons had been elected. (0.55.044) So this is how we were organized in arvans. Well, then myself is the only one who is still alive from those (coordinators). As for the others they are all gone, that is the present situation. Ishdorj You mean from those coordinators? Divaasambuu Yes. That was how we lived. Well then, as for me since 65 I worked in House debates (Library where debates on religious teachings are held) now it was a place of history, there I worked as a scribe besides performing my regular duties. Well, Dagvadorj wrote in old Mongolian script, there was one by name of Dashtseveg, he wrote in new script, I wrote in Tibetan, those were the three scribers. We wrote a history (of religion in Mongolia) and this…this was the first attempt to write the history. I… I used my own draft manuscript, and produced this work from the remaining draft manuscript of mine. The original had been lost, Academy of Sciences took away saying that it would improve and publish the work but did not give back. We wanted to demand it back but were afraid so cou… could not get it. So my own er…draft, and well, each one of us had a such brown paper bag of cement which was about this size we bound the sheets together and kept in the cement bag. I continued putting my materials in the bag, and when we were in the khashaan on the east side mouse had chewed from its corner. So I decided since I stored it for so long until now let’s make something out of it, and on occasion of the 30th anniversary of the School of Religion I produced a book by putting them into order. Actually a lot of materials given to the chancery or taken to somewhere had disappeared, I have no idea what happened to these documents, for this reason I did this thing (the book). Since 67 or 8 I worked as a clerk, a clerk in charge of procurement, I served on that post for several years. I prepared everything for Gandan such as milk and meat for tea and provisions as well as firewood, coal etc. Then in 73 I was appointed the chief procurer. Osor guai was our chief manager. But soon Osor guai had become the tsorj. In 70, ..yeah 70, in spring of 70 I was made the chief manager. So I was the chief manager then in 78 one morning khamba summoned me, when I came he said ponderingly, this Dagvadorj is drinking a lot, apparently he has become a good-for-nothing, he is no good, so we would like to give the duties of treasurer to you as an additional appointment, we’ll hold a meeting today. Well, the meeting was held in the great gher, so..so I was put in charge of economic and financial matters, I had been signing for almost 7 years (the financial documents), the 1st signature until 63 (apparently a mistake it should be 83). In 63(83) during Gaadan khamba, I left... in sch… and taught for 5 years in religious school, well then in autumn of 87 I received the order to become the tsogchin gesgui, so I served as the tsogchin gesgui for 3 years, then 90’s arrived, I decided to retire, what a man well over 60 would be doing, I already served for so many years, so I’ll get me pension and participate in congregation as an ordinary lama, so I did just that then in 92 Choi khamba was appointed as the khamba. He summoned and told me you are a person who have been working in the administration for many years, there is the need that you become, as of now, one of pillars to rely on. (0.59.18) I’ll give you the post of zasag da lama, you will, also, be responsible for the congregations in the provinces, so I held the office of the zasag da lama, the da lama for several years. In the meanwhile, a lovon lama by the name of Sharavsambuu passed away and I was told you should now take his post in the congregation, there is no who could become a lovon, so I took his seat. So after I have become lovon, in 91 our Osor tsorj, the tsorj passed away, then I was again told to become the tsorj, so until today I am serving as the tsorj, thus I am here now. Ishdorj Today, we, really, do not know anything about the rules that govern live of a lama, in general what rules and customs are there? What rules a lama should follow. Could you tell a little about this? Divaasambuu Yes, I can. With beginning of learning of the book a life of lama starts, so he enters life of a priest, after taking the vow and studying religious books (canons) one continues his monastic education, participate in congregations and religious ceremonies, his lives mostly on food and drink provided by the congregation. If one has a family in the countryside he may receive some support for his livelihood from there as well. Now, The Khuree (Monastery) did that (moved) for it was initially situated in Zuun Khuree then eventually Gandan’s three choir (theological and philosophical schools) had separated from it and moved to this place known as the Tasgan denj (hillock). So all the lamas of the three choir were housed and settled on the Tasgan hillock. It was thought that it would be impossible to concentrate one’s mind on books if too many noisy and unruly pilgrims and devotees were crowding in the streets of monastery. Therefore, the view, that a religious abode should be a special place, in mind all the streets were laid and built in such a way as to make it impossible for a cart to pass through, the doors of the fences too small for a horse to enter. And at the four corners of the Gandan stood 4 guards, 1 at each, on the south west side, south east side, north western and north eastern sides. The guards did the following: parents of the disciples (novice lamas) came to see er…to visit their child then they would tell (to the guard) well, our child know this south eastern side he is living in such a street with such a lama, the guards would call the child who would meet his parents on the goroo (outside perimeter) of the monastery and take the parcel if they have one, that was how it worked. This procedure of Gandan was effective in earlier days. These rules did not apply to the Khuree. If one studied religious canons in these three choirs, they must live in a truly religious manner, and for this purpose 4th Bogd himself had chosen this territory and 5th Bogd had Gandantegchinlen monastery built and did just that (enforced the above rule). Generally speaking, no outsider was allowed to enter the goroo (perimeter) of Gandan. However, on 15th of the first month of summer doors of all the temples were flung open, and worshippers were all let in the temples of the choir for prayer, I was told that it was the custom, I personally had no knowledge of this practice. Generally speaking, there was a time when everything had very strict rules. If you compare that period with present, since nineties a lot of new laws were adopted, many new laws are being introduced.(1.03.11) Some of the old folks tell me well, laws are passed and coming one after one but they are not implemented at all. When we were young there were only 2 words, the merit and the sin. Such a such things were considered as the sin and every one sought to refrain from the sin. Merit meant not to commit deeds of sin. And sought meritorious deeds. So there were only two words, this was what the old man told me. Just the same way, not a single person trespassed or entered the goroo (outside perimeter) of Gandan told me Damdin who lives on western side near to my home. People say that long ago not far from hear on south western side (of Gandan) a young man had quarrelled and fought with his wife, the husband jumped into the goroo, but his wife was standing on the outer side of goroo , because as a woman she could not trespass the goroo line, they continued to quarrel calling on one another if you are good (brave) enough either enter the goroo or come out of it, still the woman did not allow herself to overstep and trespass the goroo rules and laws were abided in such a manner. Ha ha. Ishdorj The rules were indeed very strict. Divaasambuu Yes. Ishdorj They could overstep it. Divaasambuu Can not overstep it. Because it was forbidden to do so. Ishdorj So they assumed that it is forbidden Divaasambuu Yeah, yeah. Ishdorj It is forbidden that’s why they did not do it. Divaasambuu yes. Ishdorj That man. Divaasambuu yes. Abiding by just one word ... Ishdorj There was now iron fence or some other obstacle, simply one such thing called goroo which is only… Divaasambuu yes. Ishdorj It was probably that, Divaasambuu yes. Ishdorj There was a line drawn Divaasambuu yes. Ishdorj Was there a line drawn. Divaasambuu Yes, of course, lamas walk and walk around the Gandan many times making circumambulation and they turn numerous prayer wheels situated around the Gandan every time during circumambulation therefore, there is a clear continuous path visible as a shallow depression. Ishdorj Well, then what you do during the goroo? Divaasambuu Goroo means walking around the monastery and temples regularly or making circumambulation. Goroo means prayer while walking around the place of worship, old lamas used walk in goroo in every evening, make several turns around and while walking continue to turn prayer wheels, it was an everyday practice, there was such a time. (1.05.12) Ishdorj Are customs and rules which were observed in south at the time of your youth exactly identitical with customs and rules in north, in outer Mongolia? Or are there some slight differences? Divaasambuu Since, there are no law or rules instituted by the state that imposes certain constraints on religious activities or in giving permission to engeage in such activities things have changed. In the past there was a document approved by the Manchu Khaan entitled “Ji lam naryn duudii”. This document grants the right of Ji lama, there are other documents for high ranking lamas such as “Da lamyn jaapuu”, “Demchiin jaapuu”. These documents grant the right to lead or be the head of a monastery on behalf of the Manchu Khaan. Also there is a letter called “duudii” which is given to an ordinary lama and certifies that he has now become a priest and he should leave his home, should live and congregate at the monastery. In olden days, during the Manchu reign, at least for a certain period, if I had built a monastery and wanted to have lamas for congregation, permission was granted to have only 50 lamas. The 50 lamas had the letters granting them the right, and in order to have a successor of the lama one disciple for each lama was chosen from the khoshuu. If the lama passes away his disciple becomes the bearer of the lamas duudii, so with 50 novice who are disciples of this or that lama, the number of lamas of the monastery would be 100. When the old lama has finished teaching his subject the disciple will get a duudii. The lama will get another disciple. This was the rule. Untill now I keep the letter authorising me to teach duudii. This was the rule. Ishdorj A very detailed description of the two principles is found in old books. What is your understanding of these two principles? Divaasambuu What are the two principles, what is the principle? Ishdorj One is the principle of state, the other is the principle of religion. Divaasambuu Oh yes, of course. These (principles) had been formulated long ago as “The ten laws” by 3rd Dalai lama, when Dalai lama arrived in Khoh hot at the invitation of the Altan khaan, there he elaborated the 10 laws of religion and this is how it was instituted. One can find them all in books of history. It said lamas should not be recruited into army, or make them participate in hunting expeditions and this and that thus granting them these rights, these are things like this. That is it. Ishdorj The main content of it, as we understood, is that there is the need to combine the principles of state and the principles of religion. Divaasambuu It should be combined. Ishdorj If they are not combined then… Divaasambuu Combine… Ishdorj the state and religion would be in disarray. Divaasambuu Impossible, impossible Ishdorj Both the state and the religion will be in disarray. Divaasambuu They should be combined by all means, combined Ishdorj For example from the “Tsagaan tuuh” (White history) of XIV century Divaasambuu yes. (1.07.54) Ishdorj From the book… Divaasambuu Of course, there are Ishdorj a tradition came to us, such… Divaasambuu It is there. “The Tsagaan tuuh” . Ishdorj So, there is a prevailing view among our scholars that today we should hold these old principles. Divaasambuu Well, yes. Ha..ha. Ishdorj They believe, today, the principles of Gandantegchinlen monastery, well, the principles of the religion should be combined with principles of our state ... Divaasambuu yes. Ishdorj There was a time when state prevailed, there was also a time when religion prevailed, but when the two are combined then a truly... Divaasambuu A combination may exist. And this was actually reflected in our recent new law (Constitution) when the following words were included: Church shall honour the State and the State shall do… care… pay attention to religion. It is inevitable, so the state was to adopt a certain rules (of behaviour) of lamas, now that very thing which (regulates), it was to be adopted but it is still not there. Such a thing to follow which is somewhat different from that of the state, stating that monastery and temples should be run in such and a such manner, should take such a such measures etc. It was supposed that a rule of this sort would be adopted. The talk about this has been going on since 95, however, until today there is no such thing, no rules, Ishdorj If you are not too tired could you tell a little about your personal life, about your relatives, who were they and are your next kin or close relative? Is it possible for you to tell a bit about them? Divaasambuu What of it, nothing special, when I migrated here and was living in Erdene tsagaan, chairman of court, representatives of law enforcement and various good-for-nothing people persecuted us relentlessly in different ways, in general, what they wanted very much was to convert us to secularism no matter how, our Chimeddorj knows it very well. How shall we secularise them? There is an active congregation which conducts its services here, it does not organise party propaganda work, was the view held by these people. Even people from Dariganga used to come to our congregation. It happened that even devotees from this far away Monkh khan (soum) came by car to Erdene tsagaan. This was a situation incompatible with party propaganda and indoctrination. So they sought ways and means to decrease the number of lamas and any other possible measures that could be effective. Then, at last they managed to strangle us with agricultural cooperative. That is why we moved to this side (Gandan). All propaganda work carried out in 50-ies were, in general, anti-religious in nature. At the same time, may be from here (Gandan) or from the government side those dargas (bosses) who made ant-religious propaganda were reprimanded for their wrongdoings, there were such occasions at that time. (1.10.26) A truly religious place should not be persecuted, it is serving the people, there were such instances. So what could we do? We were persecuted over their, so our old teachers used to council us now how can we defy these pressures, since you are ordained lamas who took the vow and are serving congregation, you had since 6 until now remained true to your vows and you will remain so, therefore, you could take a woman to cook for you (meaning marry), at present this may the best course of action. Our teachers discussed this issue on a meeting and this was the decision. That is how each one us acquired a woman to cook for us. It was only due to the persecution. Well then, my wife died in 74, I have 8 children, 4 girls and 4 boys. 2 of my boys are lamas. A grandson of mine is a lama, he has come in and left. He is the gesgui of the Zuun khuree, the rest of them are pursuing their independent lives. That is it. Ishdorj Are you satisfied with youself for following the lamaistic principles? Divaasambuu What can I say, started this when I was only 6 now I am 80 years old, I am happy that came to Gandan monastery and was able to continue my service without interruption. Ishdorj You are a lama who has, never, broken a while his services. Divaasambuu Never interrupted Ishdorj Is any other lama who had no break like you? Divaasambuu Yes, there are. Ishdorj among the lamas of Gandan monastery Divaasambuu Yes, it is. Ishdorj are there? Divaasambuu Yes, there are. I did not interrupt during the two periods, there are lamas who had not broken the service since 70. From those even before that there are only two of us, Chimeddorj and me. Ha..ha. One lama of my generation is now in do.. Dornogovi congregation, no one else. Gonchig guai, yes, it is, Ishjamts guai passed away yaeh, Luvsan guai also had gone, that is so. Ishdorj Did Chimeddorj lama came from the south also? Divaasambuu Yes, he came from the south. I was living Baruun (western) Sonid, during the revolution many families from Omnogovi migrated, fled to the south, that time Dilav Khutugt and Ochirdari of Baldan zasag were also residing there, therefore, many fled from Omnogovi, many people from Zavkhan and Bayankhongor aimag also fled from our Mongolia. During the migration many lamas arrived there so Dilav khutugt and Ochirdari inspected their leaders, assembled the lamas and set up the so called “Khalha congregation” under the jurisdiction of De Van Demchigdorj’s khoshun administration, over 300 lamas were serving the congregation. Ishdorj Do you know Dilav khutugt? (1.13.22) Divaasambuu I don’t know him, heard about him but had never met him. Well, our Chimeddorj should know very well, because his elder brother was a lama in Lamrin temple. Ishdorj He spent many years in United States. Divaasambuu They say so. I heard about that it was so. Well, that is it. I am a bit tired now. Ishdorj Sure, I thank you very much, I am confident that what you have told us today will be of great help to our research as well as in future for the study and understanding of the history of this period. Divaasambuu Well, thank you very much. Ishdorj May I wish you a long life and all the best. Divaasambuu Yeah, yeah, thank you. Ishdorj I also wish all the best to your children, and other relatives, brothers and sisters. Well, we had wonderful interview today. I am very happy that I interviewed you in my capacity as the representative of the International Association for Mongol Studies. Well, two of us Ishdorj and Divaasambuu made this interview. . Divaasambuu Well thank you. May your good wishes come true. Ishdorj Thank you. (1.14.22)