EN060404 Gandan; religion Gandan Interview, Person 3 Divasambuu Ishdorj The Oral History of Twentieth Century Mongolia 2006-04 mn XML Male 1952 060404 Ishdorj Well, I am the Executive Director of IAMS. IAMS in co-operation with University of Cambridge of England is implementing an “Oral history” project. I would like to interview you for “Oral history” project. Well, I would like to put a few questions to you. Well, firstly would you agree if we keep in archives of Cambridge University and IAMS your interview? Soninbayar Of course, I do. Ishdorj Well then, can scholars use this interview of yours in their research work? Can scholars use this interview in their research work? Soninbayar They can, can. Ishdorj And now …can this interview be used referring to you by your name? Is there any need to keep in secret your name? Soninbayar What would be there. You can use my name. Ishdorj Well, then we’ll now start the interview. Soninbayar (So I can speak, yes.) Ishdorj Can you tell me about your life, other related issues, about your thoughts? Soninbayar Well, I was born in the year of water dragon in former Borjigin Setsen Vangiin khoshuu of Khalkhyn Setsen Khan aimag, now Govi-Ugtaal soum of Dundgovbi aimag in the year of dragon. I am now well over 50. Nine of us were born from my mother. The name of my Father is Shagdarsuren , my mother is Nasanbat. My ancestors belong to the lineage of ovgon bicheech (old scribe) of Borjigin according to the description in our bequest. My father was a herder. My father’s father, my grand father was called Menengiin Togtokh-Ochir. It is said that he was repressed in 1938 without any reason for that. People say that he was the great (lead) scribe of our Borjigin Setsen vangiin khoshuu and lived in his home at banner administration of the koshuu, even today there are people who know him. His father was Myagmar. He also served at the seat of banner administration, as a great scribe. So he brought his son and made him a scribe. There was Tumendemberel jangi (janggi or commander of the banner) Tumen…Tumenbayar zangi, I know my ancestors up to him. We definitely belong to the Borjigin setsen van khoshuu, our Borjigin setsen van khoshuu had 44 clans. I am a member of the Baatar clan of Tavnanguud (son in laws of local prince) soum of Borjigin setsen van khoshuu. Tavnanguud had 5 clans, I belong to one of the Baatar clan. It is Govi-Ugtaal soum of the present Dundgovi aimag, there are Ajirkhain brigade and Ikh Ugtaal soum. I was born and grew in the depression of Ikh Ugtaal. My childhood years passed there and I lived until fifties over there. Then I was enrolled in the 1st grade of the primary school of Ikh Ugtaal. (0.02.57) Ishdorj What is your name? Soninbayar Soninbayar Ishdorj Soninbayar Soninbayar Yes, yes, Sonibayar. So I stayed, now, for 2 years in our soum, from 60 to 62 and from 63 I was transferred to the 10 year school in the centre of Dundgovi aimag, my family moved from countryside to aimag so I accompanied my father and mother and settled down in aimag. I finished 10 year school in 70. In 70 after graduating from the 10 year school by distribution I was sent to and admitted in Teacher training institute. Then due to family difficulties, my grandma fell ill, I left the institute. Afterwards in 1974 I entered Religious Institute of the Gandan Tegchinlin monastery. But there is one man who helped me very much in entering the Religious inst… Institute. I would like to recall the memory of him. He was a man by the name of Ish dogshin khutagiin Badam of Borjigin tsetsen vangiin khoshuu. Ish dogshin khutag is Bayanjargalan soum of the present Dundgovi aimag situated immediately in the south east of our soum. Badam was an old, very old lama, very old. It was Badam guai who in fact was instrumental in my admittance in this school. How did it happen? I visited Badam guai in spring and autumn of 1974. The reason for that was my grandmother fell ill and she was in the city seriously ill. At that time many lamas of Borjigin were living here, now, there is none, it was then. Many lamas used to come to Badam guai and go. And it was in Badam guai’s home that I for the first time saw young lama. That lama Jamiyanlodon, young lama Jamiyanlodon was a bald one, who sniffed snuff from a black chalcedony bottle (0.04.25) often came and go. So this was how I first saw a young lama at Gandan. Jamiyanlodon was about my age, may be slightly 3, 4 years older. He was, now, a very learned and good lama, he died. Jamiyanlodon was a disciple of my teacher - the gabj. When you visit Badam guai, around that place many lamas were living, in adjacent khashaa to the north an old lama Khaidavjunai lived, he was a native of our Borjigin. He was a citizen of Tsagaan delger soum of Dundgovi (aimag). Khaidavjunai guai was an ordinary lama of our Gandan monastery, they say that he was an artisan, a chom (0.04.52) and he was really a very good craftsman. At the same time he used to practice and dispense medicine. He was the man who treated our grandmother. So we asked for medicine …and were treated. So, so I used to visit Khaidavjunai guai and got acquainted with many lamas. (0.05.07) Then (one day) our Badam guai said: “Well, sonny this year the Religious institute is going to enroll (students), won’t year enter it”. I had no idea about such things, what a secular man would know, I was a young man, probably I was twenty, twenty two. So I said, I don’t know, Badam lama guai, now I, they say there is the Buddha (0.05.23), Buddha exists and they (venerate him) very much. I don’t worship or venerate Buddha, simply I don’t know its meaning (essence), now how could I know, I said. Then Badam guai, Badam guai’s what (neighbour) was. In the adjacent khashaa to the east was (lived) Shirendev guai, on the north eastern side lived our teacher-the gabj. Then Badam guai soon went out and came back, he was a very agile and active person, came in and said (0.05.43) in meanwhile I’ll go out and see…he said. (from the context it seems that the lama said he wanted to see the gabj.) I said at that time that it was in northern side. He said then in between I’ll see the gabjis. I did not know who they were. Then on the next day or the day after tomorrow Badam guai said your teacher the gab… gabj is a member of the entrance exam commission. He called our teacher-the gabj, so Badam guai was also a disciple of gabj-teacher. So he said you should give the entrance exams, on the so…south side there was a two story school. The Director was one by name of Chultem. It was 74, so I gave entrance exams and passed. So thanks to Badam guai, thanks to his fav.. fav..favour, I became an adherent of Gandan, then entered the Religious school, and took the path of a lama. Since my enrollment, considerable span of time, almost 30 years have passed, this is, in general, the course I followed. Then not me but as for interesting stories my teachers used to tell these stories. Specially the old Borjigin had what, they say had two choirs (theological and philosophical colleges). They were the western and eastern choirs of Borjigin. Aa Zuun (Eastern) choir was located on territory of present Govisumber aimag just a little further down the Choir (name of a present day settlement), its ruins are there, Baruun (Western) choir was placed at the juncture of present Tsagaan undur and Ugtaal soums, the settlements could see each others smoke rising since it is a flat step and there is nothing that would obstruct the view, the distance between them was a good urtuun (horse relay station), a distance of around 40 km. Borjigin was ind… indeed the hearth of our country, centre of new learning, in Borjigin the genuine choir was the Baruun choir, so there were two monasteries called Baruun choir and Zuun choir so it is said. The Zuun choir was a considerably large settlement, it was the main central monastery of the khoshuu (administration) and had a roster of 1500 lamas, palaces of Borjigin setsen van, Uizen setsen van were situated there as well as the banner administration, so it was a rather influential settlement. Well, the Baruun choir had a roster of 1000 lamas, this was the difference of the settlements. It is said that lamas of Baruun choir were somewhat humble. So the lamas were poorly educated, level of learning of most of the lamas were so so they say. But the Zuun choir was different with nice landscape and good water. The men of that location were handsome and strong and this view of themselves (0.07.33) was rather strong there. I can talk quite a bit about choir and the like, as far the subject is concerned. They say that people to the east were a bit smarter and fashionable as well as boisterous. (0.07.43) Then I happened to know an old man called Samdan who did not eat meat. He was from Nyalga Bayanjargalan (not Ilvaanjilgan) soum (0.07.49) of present Touv aimag, they (people of the soum) belonged to kharnuud clan of former Borjigin. He was a man of kharnuud clan. I was a good acquaintance of Samdan guai. Samdan guai was a disciple of our teacher. So when we were by the side of my teacher around the year of 74, 75 Samdan guai and I would talk a lot between ourselves. Samdan guai, the Samdan who eat no meat would come and used to tell a story about the evil spirit (it is not “buga” as transcribed but “bug”, “Buga” means deer or elk but “Bug” means ghost or evil spirit) of Zuun Choir. It happened that an evil spirit appeared in Zuun Choir (bug “garsan” means appeared, not “alsan” or killed, checked with Lama Soninbayar) this was what who guai eh eh Samdan guai told then, he spoke of the evil spirit of Gempil, I did not understand much. Then it was said that an evil spirit appeared before a ma…man called Gempil in his home. Borjigins called it the spirit of Gaming (Gaming or kou-ming not “Gampiral” Chinese soldiers who invaded Mongolia). So in 1900 and 21 Lamyn Lhundaa bagsh (teacher) came and returned back. He passed through Choir on his way. Now this Choir is located along the railway. It was the gamings who set fire and burnt down Janjin (not Jamin) Choir. They say then the next year evil spirits emerged. (the word “alsan” is a wrong transcription it should be “garsan” here and below) The evil spirit came out. Well, then that Gempil guai was an old unrefined, ordinary lama who served in congregation. Gempil guai… Gemp.. yes Gempil was his name, khuren or maroon (reddish brown) Gempil. They spoke about him as the khuren Gempil, he was an old man, an ordinary lama who followed and served the congregation, they say that he also had several disciples. So then the next year when the gamings were going back they set fire and shataa… burnt down that very Zuun Choir. What happened was horrible on their way back they seized and took with them Sharavrinchindorj of the Choir, the gesgui, Gombosuren noyan of Borjigin setsen, the khoshoi chin van Gombosuren-the three were taken away. Then they traveled to Beijing. While traveling across a step, they did what, executed, killed that Sharavrinchindorj. And the gesgui was apparently killed. Since the noyan was a person of honour they could not kill him after reaching Beijing he was sent back. At that time we had noyans. At a later date including Borjigin setsen noyan Gombosuren over there and there were about 4-5 noyan, noyans whose name were Gombosuren which is a very popular name. There were Dalai van Gombosuren of Suchbaatar, our Borjigin Gombosuren noyan this is what our people used to tell. This way they say at a time Dalai van Gombosuren of Suchbaatar was Minister of Military forces, our Gombosuren noyan was Vice-Minister for Ministry of Justice, then there was also that setsen van Gombosuren. At that time there lived also one Gur soronzon Gombosuren. So there were at one time at least 4, 5 person whose name were Gombosuren. You know that. So then this happened. I was telling you about this spirit in Gempil’s home, that Samdan guai told a very interesting thing. So during the winter in Zuun Choir which was a place where (гарвал хөгжсөн-not “garval” but “gar urlal”) craftsmanship had developed considerably (0.10.05), brass statues were made and there is the Borjigin cabin which is an unparalleled and unique art of construction, even today some are still standing in our soum. It is constructed without a single nail, fitted together by way of interlinking sockets, cabin was dismantled easily, there were such cabins with no surrounding fences, apparently the gers were standing in rows behind the cabin, the cabins belonged to lamas so it seems that a lama used to prepare the food. May be one of the disciples of that very khuren Gempil did it. It was a winter. Frozen hind legs were piled then one of them jumped up, the other flew and fell before him they say. So gossip about that spread. Then also what happened was various sounds were heard in the ger and many other things are told. Then asked each other what happened and rumors and gossip spread and there was a lot of noisy talk. Then they did what. Over there we had an incarnate lama or khuvilgaan. Lovon khuvilgaan of Baruun Choir was an invited lama, so they asked him what to do, are there any ways and means to deal with this and may be they told him that in Gempil’s home spirit of gamings of Zuun Choir appeared. He said to them I do not know, send to Bogd (gegeen) a messenger and inform him. So they asked 8th Bogd. Bogd replied the lama and the zochi (exorcist) who can subdue it (the spirit) are just beside you. Say about it to your lovon lama was his answer. So they say that Lovon lama bagsh together with a zochi of Baruun Choir called Jamiyan had subdued (exorcized) the gamin spirit. They did it outside of (not “hurlag” but “gorlom” which is circumambulation line or path around the monastery ) the circumambulation path. The ger of Gempil guai was moved out, it was moved out of the monastery grounds. And they did that. Samdan guai told that the two read books for 7 days, they were chanting prayers either in his ger or in a black tent, a black shack was erected and they chanted their books for 7 days. Then one evening the Lovon lama said: well, Jamiyan you should be very alert today, don’t fall sleep. Don’t fall sleep, now, tonight we two must be very ca…careful, he repeated that several times. Then while listening to the chanting of books he nodded off slightly. The he heard a hujaa (Chinese migrant) man speaking in Chinese. Again he dozed a little and awakened Jamiyan zochi shook violently his damar ( hand held drum with double face). A pelvic bone its hole picked open and clean fell with a sound of thud. There was nothing else. So that bone was crushed into pieces and put in 9 kettles and buried this is what people say. That (burial) place was a little further to north of Choir, Choir is, …that station is in the western concave of the stone mountain, they say that this happened in Nordyn khooloi (gorge), so that was it. Damdinsuren guai first wrote about it. Tseenyambuu wrote a book on demons and evil spirits, I heard he also included this story in his book.(0.12.44) Damdinsuren guai and others had been in close contact with our teacher. Our teacher had close associations with many and many scholars used to visit him. I can tell about it. I had been visiting my teacher from 74 till 78, 79. My teacher passed away in 78. In between I saw many scholars to visit him. Rinchin Byambaev guai would come, Ts, Damdinsuren guai would come, Kodoogiin Perenlei would come, Luvsanvandan would come and sat lengthy hours. Of the present generation Khurelbatar guai, Yondon guai also used to come. In general many came probably they had different things told or explained by the teacher. I definitely know what was. This Choi. Luvsanjav guai happened to be a disciple of my teacher. There is a lama a classmate of mine by name of Tsermaa, who is of my zindaa. Tsermaa and me to receive instructions from the teacher would visit him during 74, 75. And when Tsermaa and me were sitting outside Choi. Luvsanjav guai came together with a woman. It was in 70’s, probably around 76. Then the teacher told us go to Tseren… Tserendashpuntsag and wait. There was an old man in the ger on eastern side who used to cook for the tecaher. His name was Dashpuntsag, he was from Khentei. So we entered his ger and stayed for some time and when we came back they were gone, teacher said to us that oh Rinchin byambaev had passed away. So (0.13.57) this Luvsanjav brought with him his daughter Indra, they wanted me to open (not “hemjee” but “shinjee” usually called golden box to find out the cause of death and after life) his shinjee and he lighted lamp and did this and that. That is what happened. Then I don’t know whether 76 is right, I think so. Think it was 76. In general, many scholars used to visit my teacher, plenty of them. From my acquaintances Tserensodnom guai used to come and would sit there, Rinchin guai died, but from those who are now here Khurelbaatar guai, even Sodnomdargia of the eastern institute would come, later this researcher of shamanism of ours Dulam Doctor, Dulam used to come. Dulam is about my age. In 74 after becoming lama whenever I visited my teacher Dulam would be sitting there learning and taught by my teacher from duntaa (dogma) and duuria (logics). So like this, there are many things associated with my teacher. Then our teacher would say, he would say, why should I be sitting like this and take a deep sigh, in this time when there is no knowledgeable person around, various people persistently ask me different questions. If our Tavkhai was alive I would not have a headache. Unfortunately, my Ishtavkhai had gone. I am talking about Ishtavkhai guai, referring to that lama, they were very close friends, they hailed from the same country, lived together in Baruun Choir (0.15.04) and devoted 50 years to studying (religious) books. Ishtavkhai and myself were never separated during these 50 years. But my Ishtavkhai passed away before me. If only Ishtavkhai were here these issues could easily be managed he used to say. (0.15.12) He deeply respected Tavkhai guai, lama Ishtavkhai. It is said that he was an outstanding expert in Sanskrit language culture, and in daa yuniag. (0.15.18) My teacher, in general, was a simple person but was a great man by his outreach, and then he probably was the number one in choir books. Ishtavnkhai guai, our Ishtavkhai was a very scrupulous gelen (lama), he was extremely precise and scrupulous he would say. As regards of Ishtvkhai, Ishtavkhai guai I haven’t had the chance to see him. He passed away in 72 I came here after he died. Well, I am a person who first settled in Badam guai’s home in 1974. Badam guai would say our lama of Byamba or Byambaagiin lama so that Byambaagiin lama was Ishtavkhai guai. May be his father’s name was Byamba and Badam guai respected him very much referring to him as Byambaagiin lama, they were vary famous as well. At time of the closure of Baruun Choir in 1938 our lamas came here, 4 good lamas rose to imminence, actually this was predicted, that very Lovon lama said it would happen. He himself was from Baruun Choir, he was appointed by the Bogd, and had his suntag, in modern times it could mean a guarantee, he was such a huvilgaan, who had reincarnated in past 3 times and he was the 4th reincarnation. He (a reference to Ishtavkhai) was a very learned and scholarly man, he wrote one volume of work in Tibetan. His work is very interesting, contains poems, teachings and philosophical works. In general he wrote many works on subjects of sudar (0.16.22) darnad (dharani). There is a manuscript which is about the size of a volume. In addition to this they say that he was one of the most beloved disciples of Lovon lama of Baruun Choir. While in Choir our gabj bagsh and Ishtavkhai lama (were such disciples). There was another good gevsh (title of a learned lama) called Maliy (small) Samdan, Samdan guai. Then there was one man called Ishjamts, Ishjamts who do not eat meat. The old Dendev told about these three. Well, it was said Lovon bagsh used to tell to people that at the time of deterioration of religion from Baruun Choir these 4 will emerge at a later date as the most learned and scholarly 4 persons. From those I knew a survivor Ishdo…Ishjamts, he was a deaf old man who eat no meat, a person well versed and very learned as well as a good gevsh. Of course, I know very well Samdan guai, he is a native of our country therefore I know him very well, he was a very learned person. Then it was said that our gabj bagsh, Ishtavkhai guai these four would remain considerably longer. Teacher used to tell an interesting story. Our teacher spoke a lot about Duurengiin lama. That Duurengiin lama was a man called Luvsan-Ish who resided in that Baruun Choir. They spoke about him the following. It is a very interesting story. Duurengiin lama, that Duuren, Duuren was his father. A man called Duuren had two sons of about the same age. Formerly, he was from Khentei aimag. He traveled looking for a monastery to enroll his two sons about the same age as disciples. He visited many places. But he could not find a place to his liking. So he arrived in to our Baruun Choir, bringing with him his two sons of about the same age, then he entered with them in the temple and observed them. One of them, the elder was just standing (0.17.44) when they entered that choir datsan it is said that a churaan now it is (0.17.44) a de …debate was in progress, old lamas discussed the book and were debating among themselves. Then the elder son of that Duuren stood for a while in the temple, watched for some time and went out. But the younger son whose name was Luvsan-Ish as soon as he entered started debating fiercely with those old lamas as if he was their peers. So they started (0.18.08) clapping hands and went into flurry of debate. So he said well, now I think I found the place of my younger son, he will settle down in this Choir, my son’s good omen coincided, but my elder son would probably become a layman he has just went out. So following that good omen Duurengiin Luvsanish settled in Baruun Choir, he was two classes (zindaa) above my teacher, teacher would speak about him often saying he was a very learned lama and a good person. Then it happened in 1930 may be in 31 or 2, he was two classes above my teacher, that Luvsanish, over there that class (zindaa) was highly regarded. He became a rather learned and scholarly person, then over there Rabjamba myandag (degree) was conferred, Rabjambyn damjaa (course of Rabjamba) was conducted, he was a man who became known as learned from the time of his junior years. So they say that Duurengiin Luvsan-Ish, after him our gabj teacher, who was the next one after gabj bagsh in the class, it was Ishtavkhai, next class after Ishtavkhai was Samdan guai so they attended that Rabjamba course. Then how it was. That Luvsan-Ish was extremely good in grand choir, outstanding in tserenpren, in particular in philosophy of bilig barmaid (Prajna paramita), he even knew by heart the greater tsereprin aimag books, they say, extremely good in choir. Then it happened as they recount. It was in the course of 1932. Some from the Baruun Choir escaped. Now they fled, a few na…names are recollected as the escapees. There was one Choindon, he was blind, elder brother of Choindon guai papon (0.19.35) Gonchig and some are recalled by name. Quite a few six of them, together with Ish-Tavkhai guai escaped. So they traveled, traveled further and reached Gumbem. Stayed for sometime in Gumbem, spent in Gumbem may be 2 years and Luvsan-Ish guai accompanied caravan travelers to Lhasa. He resided in Gomon datsan of that very Braivan monastery, where many Mongols lived. So by the mid of 1900 and 40 received the degree of Lharamba, angi dambyn lharamba (Lharamba of angi damba) and he became teacher many disciples. Once my teacher told me. Well, we have not heard a word from Luvsan-Ish and thought that he had died, then we occasionally got words (about him), there was a man called Sengee lharamba, Sengee lha…lharamba told to some one. (0.20.16) Well, we have here such and such Lharambas, but in Lhasa a man called Luvsan-Ish had become angi dambiin lharamba of Gomon datsan. He did not come back, remained over there, we don’t know what the Chinese did to him during red (cultural) revolution, actually we had been good acquaintances he told. This is what he told us, it was what our gabj teacher had heard. He heard this news from who you think, from Mijidgombo, we know him, that Mijidgombo was a nephew of Sengee lharamba, he was the director of Ulaanbaatar museum wasn’t he, there was a man called Mijidgombo who worked in the Institute and in the Academy as well. That Mijidgombo…gombo contacted him or received news from his uncle. So this was what he told to my teacher, that man called Mijidgombo after his travel heard the above, who knows may be that elder brother lama wrote a letter, so he told that our Luvsan-Ish lived over there, and in 60’s during the time of red guards he could not flee to India, apparently died there. This is what was told. Ishdorj Please continue. Soninbayar Oh, well, then Ishdorj Continue talking Soninbayar Well, not really myself, I can tell you what I heard from my teacher, I heard a lot about the Borjigin, about the life of our country. What is Borjigin, if you look carefully, it is people of Bogd Chinggis lineage. If we leave it aside as for the Borjiogin land it is said that it was the pasturing range of horse herds of Chinggis. That is to say the plain stretching between the Khalhyn tal (Khalh step) and Erdene zuu. Ishdorj Аh haan. Soninbayar This, bagsh used to say, is the Borjigin land. Its north eastern corner is Kherlen river, only a small stream where 4 horses could barely drink simultaneously (“Хэрлэн голоос 4 мөр мэлэлзээд, хошуу багтсан ус л “ is wrong transcription according to the interviewee) was allotted to Borjigin, it is small piece of land, the rest belongs to other khoshuuns. South western point is Ikh gazriin chuluu, it stretches far away to the south east, till the golden coloured sands of the present Dornogovi. The south eastern most point is a location called Uushig tsanginuulah (0.22.20). This is told as the south eastern end of Borjigin land. Borjigin land stretches far a away to south east, by the modern understanding Borjigin plain covers 14 soums of 5 aimags. I’ll tell which aimags are they. Southern side of Bayantsagaan of Touv aimag is entire… actually not entirely, on two sides of Bayantsagaan there are Tsahars and Baraguud, Borjigins live on the south and south eastern side, that oblong depression belongs to Borjigin land. Then southern side of Maanit, oh no Maanit was the serfdom of Bogd. (0.22.55) On the southern side of Maanit means the south of Bayan soum a location called Oortsog Elgen Borjingins live around it. Now, There is Bayanjargalan soum of Touv aimag which extends to till the shores of Herlen river. Ishdorj Yes. Soninbayar Then when you turn to southward, you reach Delgerkhaan of Khentei, one bag (county) was included in Delgerkhaan of Khentei, Delgerkhaan they say. One bag was absorbed in present Delgerkhaan soum. Further down south it is Darkhan of Khentei, on the eastern side of Darkhan as well as the western side there are Borjigins, eastern side was called the Akhai Beisiin khoshuu which was a part of the Setsen khan, to the west side.. the navel (centre) of Borjigin tribe is the Sumber soum of Govi sumber aimag now this is Sumber soum of Dornogovi aimag, in other words it is the Choir. The main monasteries of Borjigin setsen khoshuu Zuun Choir and Baruun Choir were standing there, and they say that by their side on Eldeviin gol banner administration and the palace of the noyan were established. Then Borjigins are found in Dalanjargalan of Dornogovi, Khar airag of Dornogivi, how about this Bor Undur mine, it is in Khentei aimag, in Airag, Ikh and baga khet, ihk and baga khetuud, then Altan shiree and up to Delgereh. Borjigons live in Tsagaandelger, Govi-Ugtaal, in the northern part of Undurshil soums of Dundgovi aimag. Thus over 10 soums were part of Borjigin vangiin khosuu. I am talking about Borjigin van khoshuu not about actual Borjigin tribe. When you say Borjigin vangiin khoshuu we talk about 14 soums of modern 6 or 5 aimags. For the very simple reason that they have the right to claim themselves to be Borjigins. If you say simply that you belong to Borjigin clan, this means completely different thing. Those who are called the descendents of taij borjigin of Chinggis lineage, meaning the descendents and offspring of numerous noyans of golden lineage, then they are found in very aimags of Mongolia, so they are apparently the descendents of Chinggis lineage or people of taij Borjigin origin. Then there was a very learned gevsh of Zuun Choir of our Borjigin he used to tell us. People called him Avga gevsh, his name was Geleg-Yarimpil. Avga gevsh, in his later days, remained at Gandan, there was also an old man called Danzanjambaa guai, I know very well Danzanjambaa guai he lived near the TV building, Danzanjambaa guai was a tall old man and a very learned gevsh. I know him very well. My gabj teacher respected him very much and used to say that he was a very learned person. Dambazamba guai lived just behind the TV tower, had a small ger full of books. He came to Khuree when he was quite young, that may be in 74, 5?. Danzanjamba guai from childhood was ordained in Janjin Zuun Choir monastery of Borjigin and seriously studied choir book so virtually (barag angilsan) distinguished himself over there. (0.25.30) Then by the mid of 30’s he moved to Bogdyn Khuree and settled at Dashchoimbol datsan, there he was considered one of the outstanding gevshis. So that learned man, that man was a disciple of Avga gevsh, there was one called Avga gevsh of Zuun Choir, his name was Geleg-Yampil, Geleg-Yarimpil, that Geleg-Yarimpil was the main mentor and master of Choir training at the Zuun Choir. Then this happened. People speak a sort of legend. Avga bagsh was originnaly from Zuun Choir and what happened was this at Zuun Choir lamas of Zuun Choir somewhat disliked and disdained him, who knows what was the reason for that. So he himself said one day when he was ill, burry my dead body, burry my head directed towards the Baruun Choir. So there is a stone cairn, called Nartyn Chuluu, at the juncture of three soums the present Undur… Undurshil of Dundgovi , Bayanjargalan of Dundgovi and Dalanjargalan of Dornogovi. So his tomb was buried in that Nartyn Chuluu. When burying he was placed in the tomb his head directed towards north west they say. In other words his head was directed towards the Baruun Choir and it was said that thanks to this good omen many good gevshis were born from Baruun Choir. Good ones also came out from Zuun Choir. However, the last good gevsh from Zuun Choir except him was Danzanjambaa guai, he was very good, people referred to him as dulbaan Jambaa guia and he was a very sacred and pure gevsh, he was a good person, my teacher respected him very much and used to say this Danzanjambaa guai was well versed in choir. He died long ago. Now there is almost no one from Zuun Choir. Except Goo Samdan guai of ours almost no one else remains from the lamas of Baruun Choir, he is now at Gandan and almost 90 years old, he is probably the only remaining one from the disciples of Baruun Choir, in fact. As for the Zuun Choir they are almost all gone, in general. Our lamas at Gandan used to say that 7 lamas from Baruun Choir served in Gandan monastery but not a single one from Zuun Choir was admitted, my teacher also spoke about it. Apparently their attitude towards Pil and his colleagues were not so good, my gabj teacher always called him Pil not using his full name Erdenepil, I don’t know well what was the reason behind it. Pil guai became the first khamba when Gandan was reopened in 44, he served as the khamba for more than 10 years and apparently gave his duties to Gombojav guai. What happened was the following, my teacher and Damba bagsh were sitting together and they told us that Damba was also a very good learned man from our Borjigin, he was a very good gevsh, he also served as the unzad (cantor or presentor). Then this is what happened. (0.28.51) When Erdenepil guai was still the khmaba of Gandan, may be around 50’s, after he has been for long time (as the khamba) in 5, 6 (in 55, 56) they wanted their teacher (to become a lama) at gandan, whose name was, and who was a very learned lama, he was from Baruun Choir, he was either gabj or agramba, any way a learned man. So they wanted to enlist that man in Gandan and asked for an audience with Erdenepil guai. Then Erdenepil guai did that, he said there are 7 persons from the Baruun Choir, from your Borjigin and called them by names, don’t you think it is sufficient and so he was unwilling to accept. So they started explaining that he was their teacher, we want this man to be enlisted. Then Pil, Erdenepil our teacher used to refer to him as just Pil. Pil was very reluctant and rather ill-mannered. So he told us that I wanted my teacher to join (Gandan). Then Pil said if he comes there would be 8 of you from Borjigin that would (“Хүрээ чимгийн дурсгалыг эвдчихнэ шүү дээ” is wrong) broke the balance of representation at our Khuree (0.28.44). And he did not allow his admittance. So he was not admitted, Pil did it because he was consciously unwilling to allow that. Then there is an interesting thing, that could serve as the reason for being so unwilling. This was what happened. An international Congress of Mongolists was held in 1959. Dr. Ragu Vira came from India, he was an expert of Sanskrit language and apparently he was al…almost a mahabandida. My teacher told me (about it) they had been in contact. The Ragu Vira did that, at that time Rinchin Byambaev guai was translating for the foreign participants of the Congress, for some of them. So guests from India visited the Library (of Gandan). During their visit Ishtavkhai guai was the librarian. So Ishtavkhai guai spread out his books and my teacher was standing on his side. Then Rinchin Byambaev guai who knew them approached and introduced “This is Dr. Ragu Vira from India an specialist in Sanskrit language”. So the two lama accompanied them around the library and they read a lanz book. Then Ishtavkhai guai and my reacher were also reading after them. Then that man stopped and asked do you know this ancient language of India? So two replied we came from Janjiny Baruun Choir of Borjigin, we never visited any other place, we did not even visit this Khuree when we were young so never…had been abroad. Then how do you know this? They replied, knew it because they were lamas who studied the Daa nyan-ag (phonology), lamas who had Daa nyan-ag. So they said well, when we were at Baruun Choir in the beginning of 1930’s we had a teacher called Baruud lama, by the name of Dambiinyam Rabjamba. We learned under his guidance Da nya means phonology or theory of harmony, he was teaching us so thanks to that we have some knowledge of it they told him.(0.30.34) Then they came across a book in soymbo letters. There are books in soyombo letters, so when they saw that book in soyombo, they told him this is a book in soyombo letters created by our Undur gegeen, it is called soymbo letters. My teacher was giving the explanation he said that it was comparable to the phonology. Then Ragu Vira who was rather old said that he wanted to learn it. So he thanked them, he came back several times to visit them, then the next day or the day after tomorrow during the recess of the Congress he came with Rinchin guai, and he invited them to his hotel, he was staying at Ulaanbaatar hotel, where he told them well, you two don’t know modern Indian language, but you could learn it very easily and quickly as you did here(0.31.12), I would like to invite you on my own expense. I’ll send invitations to your khamba lama. Then there were no words. But one day, long after he had left, went back, apparently during the winter Rinchin guai called on phone my teacher. He asked whether my teacher has received the invitation, he responded asking what invitation was it. Then Rinchin guai said oh Dr. Ragu Vira has sent invitations on your name to both of you, Pil khamba, Erdenepil khamba has the invitations. This was what he told. So it was said that it was Pil guai who concealed the invitations. That is why they had been not so good to Pil guai and always referred to him simply as Pil, they would not call him Erdenepil just Pil. However, they would not speak badly about Pil, he used to say that Pil was a person who has a mind of state official and a very serious person. No he would say anything bad, but my teacher had some reservations concerning one thing. This was the following. Erdenpil guai translated this “Cloud messenger” extracting it from Danjuur. It is called Rinjimpuniyo in Tibetan, my teacher used to say about this translation, well this translation of Pil guai of the “Cloud Mes…Messenger” is a mediocre one, thus he did not thought of highly or valued it. But at a later date Rinchin guai made an another translation from English. He once told me that since he (Rinchin guai) was an expert in linguistics he did a marvelous translation. Well, I could tell you a lo… lot of things about my two teachers. Our Ishtavkhai guai of Borjigin, many scholars now remember and talk about our Ishtavkha guai. Now this Khurelbaatar guai is a disciple of my teacher, this is what they say. Ishdorj So he said my teacher, there now… Soninbayar There was one Danjiilaaluvsanramaadan rabjamba Danzan-Osor Ishdorj Oh, Danzan-Osor Soninbayar You know him probably. Now this who said, Professor Tsend guai told me. Tsend guai was in Institute of Linguistics, he apparently was chief of the section on literary studies. (0.32.58) This institute of linguistics was established in 1961. Not just the institute the Academy itself was established in 61. So with the founding of the Academy institute of linguistics was established. Ts. Damdinsuren guai was appointed as the Director of institute of language and literature. So what Damdinsuren guai did was that, he apparently started recruiting good researches and scholars of Tibetan because he himself knew Tibetan very well. Then what he did was, that who told, Tsend guai told the following. He said Damdinsuren bagsh for apparently he-Tsend guai was a disciple of Damdinsuren guai. He told that Damdinsuren bagsh guai paid very much attention to Tibetan studies. Then he also spoke about one Altangerel, Chuluuny Altangerel, that Altangerel was sorting books in the (State Central) library, he was sorting books in the present State central public library, there was another man by the name of Tsedenbaljir, these two were working there. I think they were working there after Gombojav khamba (who used to do that job) in 59, 60, 61. After becoming the Director of the Institute of Language and Literature he enlisted some of them to work (for the institute). Altangerel guai was enlisted on the post of an expert of Tibetan language in 61. It would seem that he did considerable work in 61. Well, definitely together with Tseso Tserensodnom guai they read the Turfhan col…collection Tsevel guai told about it. Then it went like this. Turfan is situated in Shinjan Uigar region. German researches found a number of books over there ta…took them with them. They brought them back and published photo copies of those books. It is possible that they have received additional instructions to study those here. Tserensodnom guai worked on it, Tse…Tserensodnom guai looked through those multiple of separate pages and compared them with other books, in any way he made serious attempts to figure out what they were. So he often asked from Altangerel guai who worked with him, to which book could this page belong to? Altangerel guia looked at it and would say straightway this is a torn page of this or that book or sutra. He was man with powerful intellect and sharp visual memory. So Altangerel guai did just that, he co-authored 4,5 articles with Tserensodnom guai on Turfan collections. He himself wrote a two volume work entitled “Works written in Tibetan by Mongols”. One on Danzabravjaa, the other on Yuvangolyn (0.35.09). In addition to that he is also the author of one chapter of the second volume of “Review of Mongolian Literature” published in 1975. He did many work such as these. There are many people in the Institute of Language and Literature who know him, now let’s see Tserensodnom guai is there, Tsend guai and a few others are there, but the rest of them of later generation don’t know him well, they say only heard about him nothing else. (0.35.29) It seems that he was a very good person (meaning expert). And in addition to that they also mentioned whom, there was a person by the name of Ts. Dorj guai, professor of the University. Ts. Dorj guai seems to be a Buriyad man, either from Teshig or from Zaamar any way from that vicinity. Dorj guai was enlisted because he was actually a gabj, I don’t know from where, probably he was gabj of this khuree. So he was also recruited by Damdinsuren guai. He was appointed as the teacher (professor) of Tibetan language. He was the teacher of our Gaadan khamba, there is a picture of a bearded man that of Ts. Dorj guai. That Dorj guai did what. When a department of Tibetan language was opened in 50’s he started teaching and published 3 volumes, 3 volumes of “Text book of Tibetan language” and other very good books such as “Tibetan-Mongolian interlinear dictionary”. I think this was published on the occasion of the 20th anniversary of University, you find it here and there. Another interesting thing is that he presented on the first Congress of Mongolists a very interesting paper dealing with Tibetan-Mongolian Dictionary. Now that paper dealt with collected names and Tibetan- Mongolian dictionary. This kind of things are told. That’s why Dorj guai was a very big scholar. Eventually he got very old, poor thing and transferred his responsibilities to Gaadan khamba. So Gaadan worked as Tibetan language teacher after Dorj guai. Tsend guia talk about such things quite a lot. Tsend guai told me one thing. There was a woman whose name was D. Tsagaan (0.37.00), a woman who knew Tibetan language. I don’t know whether she was in Institute of Language and Literature or a professor of Teacher training Institute. It was D. Tsagaan guai who defended a dissertation on Danzanravjaa in 65. When she defended her dissertation on Danzanravjaa as a person with good knowledge of Tibetan Ts. Dorj guai was included in the council of scientists. So Dorj guai apparently was very good in Tibetan language and a scholar of high amp…amplitude. Oh then about that event photograph and images of which are placed in Gandan. That is in 56 the 2500th anniversary of Lord Buddha’s attaining of nirvana was observed in India. That time I think Jhavaharlal Nehru was the Prime Minister, yes Jhavaharlal Nehru was. So Erdenepil khamba of our Gandan had received an invitation. It said now we are inviting you to the anniversary of the 2500th anniversary of Lord Buddha. Then at that time a decision was taken. Erdenepil guai called a meeting of members of his administration and informed that he was feeling not well, and too old, therefore he could not go this time, and said let’s send Gombodoo gesgui. So it was decided that Gombodoo gesgui would go. Gombodoo gesgui of ours was a very famous person. He himself was real history, all the lamas were fond of him, I have not seen a single person who spoke badly about him.(0.38.12). I personally have not seen him. Gombodoo gesgui passed away in mid 60’s. They speak of him as Dandarlingiin Gombojav, no Gombodoo of Bayantsagaan of Touv aimag. He came from Dashchoimbol datsan of the Khuree. He was a member of the Dandarlingiin aimag, one of 30 aimags of khu…the Khuree, he was such a man. They told an interesting story. Now that Gombo…Gombodoo gesgui, did achieve that, he had become a gesgui at a relatively young age. Elders told how it happened. Bogd was alive until 1924. Then one day 8th Bogd did the following. He reshuffled and appointed 4 tsogchin gesguis. So suddenly that Gombodoo was made a gesgui. Gombodoo at that time was still an adolescent and it is said that everybody was surprised. Gombodoo guai was then very young may be just over 20. So people gossiped what is happening, now Bogd had appointed almost a small child. He was young may be just over 20, Gombodoo guai. It is too early he has not reached the eminence of a gesgui (0.38.53) why Bogd is doing this was the talk (circling around). Some others were saying that Bogd made this decision taken into consideration distant future, it is probably a very meaningful and farsighted step. So Gombodoo guai was serving as the tsogchin gesgui until the monastery was closed in 1938. Then according to what people say Gombodoo guai was secularized, like many others and as layman worked at a salt making and a butter making factories in his native Bayantsagaan. Meanwhile the Gandan was reopened in 44 and he became the gesgui (disciplinarian)of the Gandan. Then people said Bogd looked far ahead, he foresaw that Gandan will be restored and he (Gombodoo) will take the baton of gesgui in his hands that was why he was appointed a small child to that post this was what our elders were saying. Well that could have been the reason. People say that Gombodoo guai never scolded or swore at others, he was usually calm and dignified. They say that devotees coming in (the monastery) really did not approached him closely, they did not come to Gombodoo guai very near and usually kept their distances. It is said that Gombodoo guai would sit or stand imposingly the baton in his hand. He was a man of such a commanding appearance. That impressiveness was not the appearance of majestic and terrifying wrath of noyans and Khaans but he would behave himself in his usual manner. The people say of Gombodoo guai, he was an interesting and apparently a very prudent and cautious man. He was a member of the del…delegation to the 2500th anniversary of Lord Buddha. He went there on behalf and as the representative of Erdenepil khmaba. Then Shadavyn Luvsanvandan from the University also accompanied him. Also went with them the one we talked about before, Ts. Dorj guai. There is a photo of him, he wears a sleeveless jacket on his robe, with a felt hat on his head. (0.40.231) So they visited India in 56, traveled in India, the country of Jagar and there are photos of their visit to the most sacred places related to Lord. About this visit there is a book written by my gabj bagsh entitled “2500th anniversary of attainment of nirvana by Lord Buddha” made in a very interesting way. It was written in Tibetan and on the side lines in Mongolian, the Mongolian text was written by Sonomgenden a lama of the Gandan monastery. I reissued it several years ago in Cyrillic letters, those photos are printed in it. It could be seen as one of the works of my teacher. My teacher had a number of work. He had an inclination to compose and write essays, wrote several books, I would not say this a sumbum or collection his work. Gabj bagsh had several writings which could make a volume. But Ishtavkhai lama had one volume of collection of work, all in manuscripts and not published. There were people of that kind in our Gandan, and at Gandan monastery. Except those they say there were many at our Gandan. When we talk about libray or house of books there was a learned lama by the name of Ochir gavj. He was a gavj from Zayaiin Khureen, a very learned one. Then there was Angi (eccentric or distinctive) Lamaajav from sungiin aimag or Dashcoimbolyn aimag of former Dornogovi aimag. My teacher used very often to speak of Angi Lamaajav guai, Ochir gavj etc. Then there was the one called Uulyn (from mountain) Jamts who sat together with us in the hall of debate or the house of books. This Zurkhait Uulyn Jamts was the teacher of our Altangerel gesgui. Teacher would talk about people of this kind. Then that hall of debate was opened, when Gombojav was the kamba of the Ga… Gandan in 60, 60. So he paid a lot of attention to cult …culture and education of the young lamas, not only the young but the lamas as a whole. So he did that. He restored the hall of debate which was there in former days. So gavjas and agrambas as well as strong gevshis of Gandan monastery were enlisted under the leadership of Gombojav guai, in one room sutras and books were spread out and they were told that they should now do research work. In doing so they were told that scientists from Academy of sciences and some scholars from the University would participate in their research work. So Rinchin guai, Dandinsuren guia and others actually came to them held discussions and exchanged books between themselves. Then such men as our teacher the gavj, that Lamaajav guai, Ishtavkhai lama, and Ochir gavj became the main bridge between Academy of Sciences and Gandan in their scientific and research work. It seems to me this is how it worked. Then many other things were recollected and spoken. Apparently my teacher was the mentor of the hall of debate. Tsoodol who was a class below me told that there were several other lamas. (0.43.00) Then very often that who used to come. Since there was that Uulyn Jamts guai Ninjbadgar guai often came, she would ask a lot of questions concerning astrology. Dr. Jugder was also mentioned. Dr. Jugder visited many times and he was particularly interested in philosophical issues. My teacher once wrote about it but I never asked from him personally, he told it to others. He once had erected a small ger (for summer camping) in the willow forest of Songino, the former chairman of the Great Hural which Gotov he is, Gotov guai and Tudev guai (from the following phrases it would seem that it is “Jugder” not “Tudev” ), and the two of them spent one summer near the teacher in the bay of Songino. It was apparently around ja….70 or in 60‘s I don’t know well, it was said so. So he spoke of Jugder guai that he was toying with “um”’ Um is the philosophy of emptiness. So he studied the philosophy of emptiness there. He apparently learned from and was taught many things by my teacher. The two had milk mares there and spent more than a month in a ger in Songino willows that Jugder Doctor. Later I came to know Jugder guai, he read lectures to us. He used to lecture in our class in 74, 5. I heard first about Jugder guai before becoming a lama. It was in 72, there was a young man by the name of Rinchinkhand who finished our class in Dundgovi. The uncle of Rinchinkhand was a very learned man. His name was Daichin beisiin khar Bavuu. The Daichin beisiin khoshuu is the present Delgertsogt soum of Dundgovi aimag, he was from there. I knew that khar Bavuu gavj. Because since we were about the same age Rinchinkhand would often say let’s visit my old uncle and we would come to him. He was an old man with many burkhans, shrines and oblations, to me he was an old man, so did not really knew him well. Then one day Rinchinkhand told me scholar Jugder visited our family. He wanted to see my old brother. It was probably in 72. So he asked many questions and left. When he left it was said about him that he was a man who got a scientific degree, and studies religious philosophy and asked many very detailed questions. Then he told a man of his zindaa the following (about Jugder). His name was Suvd and he was a man of the same religious class (zindaa) as khar Bavuu, Suvd guai, Suvd guai was from Deren soum of Dundgovi. Suvd guai was told well, a man called Jugder met me, he put a lot of questions, in general he speaks quite bit about religion and choir (philosophy), he seems to be not bad at all. So that Suvdaa guai asked: well, how good and learned person was that Jugder he insisted with his questions. Then who guai replied, that very Bavuu guai replied, well, he is a person just like a fattened horse with limp limbs. Fat horse with limp limbs is a terrible description (0.45.44) a fat horse with limp limbs means, in fact, that he has not studied the elementary basics but speak of high matters such as um and mum. It is an interesting occurrence, so it was written…spoken. If I were to tell you about what I have heard like this there would be a lot to dwell on. Ishdorj Please continue talking. Soninbayar Aan, what shall I tell you now? Hee, hee. Ishdorj The present situation, it would be interesting to speak about the present situation, about Gandan, about your school. Soninbayar Ok. I’ll be brief. Well, it happened in 1970, no they say it was in 1967 to be more exact. Russian scholar of Mongol studies Nikolai Rerih visited in 1967. He came to Mongolia two times and he was acquainted with my teacher. So Rinchi guai, Damdinsuren guai and others met our khmaba Gombojav and had the following talk. And it was Rerih who actually raised the issue and Rerih told Gombojav guai your Gandan is a well known place in world by its Buddhist philosophy and Buddhist studies. So Rerih said to him now the lamas of former generation are getting older, it would be desirable if you were to establish a school to train young lamas. Rinchinguai, Damdinsuren guai and they all supported the suggestion wholeheartedly. Then I understand Gombojav guai also was supporting it. So soon he had an audience with Tsedenbal darga to present this issue. This way the issue of establishing a school was under consideration since 67. So after some time in 1970 khamba lama of Buriayd Gomboev guai and our learned Tserendorj Gombojav guai took the final decision and in 70 the religious school was established, in 70. The founders were without doubt Gombojav khamba and Gomboev guai, they were the true founders no matter what. Then I was not among those in the first enrollment, I was in the second enrollment in 74. The first group of students are classmates of khamba lama, they are considerable in numbers. Our Gunchin-Ish, Bulgan and others as well as myself are from the second enrollment. Until now we had here 13 graduations in all. Amgalan and others told that in the first group in 70 there were 20 Mongol children, may be 10 from Buriyad, so they speak of the first 20 students. At the beginning it was established as the Religious Academy and training lasted for 6 years. From our enrollment it was named the Religious Institute and in the Academy students were trained for 5 years. The curricula of the 6 year training was rather broad, it is said that they had almost completed reading the philosophy of 5 elements, they themselves say that they heard considerable amount of teachings and learned a lot. They say that Kamba lama guai was teaching Za zod and Dulbaa, that very Angi Lamaajav guai and Navaandorj bagsh and others were lecturing. (0.48.09) This is what I heard. From the very beginning students from Buriyad attended our school, many Buriayd students graduates of the school have become khamba lama. Jamiyan Chagdarov, khamba of Buriyad wa… was a graduate of our school. Now then am…Jamiyan khamba, then Choidorj khamba, then now this Damba Auyshiev they are all graduates of our school. Except Buriyads later lamas from khalimag (Kalmyk) and Tuva began their training here. Sanjaa, I think, is now the khamba lama of Khalimag, there are also high lamаs in Tuva. Well, then at the beginning English was taught in our school by that who, Choi Luvsanjav guai, Tsetsegmaa bagsh, Gombosuren bagsh, later Sumiya bagsh, Natsagdorj bagsh, Dorjgotv guai were teaching English. Now many young teachers are working in our school. At the very beginning, I was told, in the first group before us Damdinsuren guai, Khedeegiin Perlei guai, Luvsanvandan guai, Rinchin guai read lectures. In our class they did not teach. During our time Dagvadorj bagsh used to teach in the other class. It was one class above us and he did not teach us. The curriculum was changed slightly. At first it was a program for 6 years then the duration was reduced to 5 years and the curriculum became somewhat narrow and squeezed before that it is said many interesting subjects were taught. Even lessons of physical culture was introduced in our Gandanjandal, physical training (0.49.35). At that time there was a person called Nyamsuren, a man with red nose, apparently he was our first education manager or something I don’t know exactly. He was an English professor at the University, he died. They say that it was he who, that unscrupulous Nyamsuren marred our children. The reason for that was that he included lessons of physical culture in the programme. Then it was said that lamas were brought to the gymnasium of the Institute of Medical sciences for the lesson. There instead of vaulting horse female students were vaulting over male student lamas. So the lamas were extremely dejected by it. Then I don’t know why since our enrolment physical culture was excluded from the programme. In that way the class above us had to pass through many interesting experiences. May be because they were the very first enrollment. Apparently it was a time when they were still experimenting ways and means as well as methods to run the school. Things went a bit smoother with us. During the last a few years our school is expanding on a small scale. In general, there was a fresh enrollment in four years. That way several years passed and not so many students were enlisted. For instance in 84, no in 74 eight of us were admitted. Only one Bayarsaikhan left.(0.50.38) Now seven of us are here. That is the demand. However, presently we are enlisting slightly more. But during the last few years, and since 90’s we started enrolling gradually more and more students. Our khamba often say that now there are many congregations and monasteries in rural areas. Therefore, we need to train educated personal, you are enrolling insufficient number of students. Probably, it is true. There are many things of this kind. Well, then if you look at li…life of a lama, there were many who observed strictly the Dulbaa (laws of monastic life) and sanvaar (vows), in our elder generation, there were many single lamas, who had no idea about family life, wife and children and had no wives. After secularization they were engaged in ordinary job and later around 40, 50 ‘s rejoined the Gandan, and lived on whatever the Gandan could afford to give them for their livelihood, there were many, a considerable number of such lamas. Now, there are very a few of them. Chimeddorj guai is almost the only one remaining from the older generation. He is a man from Omnogovi. During the uprising of 32 he fled to south, stayed in Sonod (khoshuu) and he was among those who returned back after 45. He was staying in Khar airag soum of Dornogovi, then it was done, what was done to our Gandan. Well, then in 44 in Ulaanbaatar Gandan was restored. It was restored as the temple of prayers, while Gandan existed here, in rural aimags, in rural areas there were about 4 or 5 monasteries. So what happened was that after the war of 45, in Inner Mongolia, the borders were opened or something else. There was a uu… congregation of Barag and Uzemchin. It was a congregation that came in from Barag, a congregation of Uzemch. Well, the There was a congregation of Huuchid in Erdenetsagaan soum of Suchbaatar aimag. This Tseveennyambuu guai and others are from there. There were 2 congregations in Omnogovi no no in Dornogovi. These two were the congregations of Airag and Nuden. Lamas who fled to sounth from Govi tushee gun and Baldan zasag and later returned had their congregations there. Many of them joined Gandan. Dagvadorj khamba and others were from Baldan zasgiin khoshuu. In khovd, in Bulgan soum of Khovd there were Torguuds. In that way at the same time with Gandan there were several, 5 congregations. They conducted their services, held congregations and recitals in local areas simultaneously. After becoming khamba Gombojav guai united them all to the Gandan. So Ga…in sixties it took place. So during the leadership of Gombojav guai Gandan became the seat of many learned lamas who studied and accomplished themselves in many different branches of science such as choir (theory) philosophy, interpretation, astrology, medicine and architecture, specialist in many fields. Gandan during Gombojav guai had over 100 lamas. And it achieved a certain degree of development. (0.53.11) So then at a later stage now the 90’s arrived and many new monasteries emerged. After 90 their number increased rapidly. However, Gandan is undoubtedly the centre of religion of present day Mongolia, no matter what. Historically, Gandan was built during the 5th Bogd. It was built according to the decree of the 5th Bogd and by his instructions, originally it was the 4th Bogd who sprinkled the dochi and consecrated the place. He marked the size of the plot of the Gandan. So then in fact the 4th Bogd confirmed that in future the monastery would be built there. Then the 5th Bogd, the next Bogd had now the Gandan monastery built. It was built in 1638-the year of dog. So Gandan had reached a significant level of development. Particularly by the end of 19th and beginning of 20th centuries many prominent scholars and sages were born from the Gandan monastery. So it was like this. Gandan achieved remarkable progress during the 5th Bogd. It was the 5th Bogd who was responsible for the emergence of 5 agvaans. Agvaan Baldantsooj, Agvaan Tuvden rabjamba, Agvaab Khaidav Adiya Khamba and Agvaan Luvsandondov whose name was Chijaa gavj. And they were others like them. There were many people who were ocean of wisdom, wrote and created their work in Tibetan language. Today world scientist are very surprised to find out that there were so many Mongolian lamas who studied different sciences and wri …wrote so many books. And then during the 8th Bogd it grew and expanded considerably. The reason for that was establishment 3 new datsans. There were the two datsans of Gungaachoilin and Dashchoimbol. Then 1911 Bogd issued a decree and established this datsan in the north, the Idgaashvaanjiliin datsan. In establishing the datsan lamas were recruited from Gungaachoilin and Dashchoimbol. So many good gevshis and many gavj were born from those 3 datsans. They say that many learned scholars came out them. The most famous is probably Angi Shagdar guai, our teacher told a lot about him. He first joined Sungiin aimag and eventually had excelled and was chosen as the Angi (distinguished) terguun gevsh of Dashchoimbol datsan of the Khuree. He was from Dornogovi, from Altan Shiree of Dornogovi. There is a biography of him. Lamaajav, there was a man called Angi Lamaajav. When Angi Lamaajav guia was in the Khuree he was a disciple of Angi Shagdar guai. While serving in Hall of debate he wrote a book on Angi Shagdar guai. In that book he mentioned a place called Altan shiree of present Dornogovi in Khondog soum. This was the location in Khondogo, that he was born, in that Khondog or Elsen tasarkhai. This place is situated apparently in Altan shiree soum of Dornogovi. Actually, Altan shiree of Dornogovi is situated in our Borjigin, Borjigins live at this side of Shiliin chuluu and Toig brigade. (0.55.43) The further side of Erdenetsogt would become Mergen Vangiin khoshuu and Khondog. Well, then in 19th century many Angis were born from the Khuree. My teachers used to tell us that many Angis came out of the Dashchoimbol. They were all extremely well versed and undefeatable by any one, good gevshis and philosophers. Most of them, as it is said, were born from Sungiin aimag, Duinkhoryn aimag and Lamringiin aimag (0.56.09) When you speak of Duinkhoryn aimag, Lamringiin aimag, the lamas were probably from the present Bulgan province. From the present Bulgan aimag (province) many Angis were born. Such as Angi Damdinjamts, Angi Sodovjamts and there are many other persons, many were born. From Sungiin aimag of Dornogovi many Angis were born. There were many admirable and magnificent lamas as Nuurnii (0.56.25) Lyangua, Nuurnii Tserendorj, Angi Shagdar guai, Angi Chogdon. My teacher told me that it was a peak of their fame. Year of Dragon falls on 1900 and 4. In the year of dragon of 1904 13th Dalai lama visited Mongolia because of a political reason. It was, in reality, prearranged by Agvaandorj, Agvaan Lharamba who interfered in the matter at a late stage and advised him (Dalai Lama) to take this step. Pilin Oros (Britian) intruded from the other side. British soldiers occupied India at the outset of 1900, then they turned to north along the western and eastern slopes of Himalaya reached Bhutan and occupied these territories completely. So the British army was approaching rapidly to Lhasa, it was at such time when the situation got very serious that 13th Dal… 13th Dalai lama Tuvdenjamts together with small group of escorts descended to the plain. He was in fact fleeing, persuaded by Agvaandorjiev to do so. His main goal was to seek the assistance of the Majestic White Khaan of Russia. He could not proceed any further. After his arrival he stayed for quite some time in Mongolia. At the time 13th Dalai Lama arrived in Khu…Khuree, people say that training in choir (theory and philosophy) was truly excellent. Then what happened was 13th Dalai Lama Tuvdenjamts himself was very good in choir books, he studied philosophy, and he was indeed a very good gevsh, probably he was a lharamba. So when he arrived, at Gandan there were such eminent lamas as Borjigin Jamts guai, Angi Shagdar guai, Zavaa Damdin guai and others so they apparently welcomed him or not who knows. So he was invited into the Palace of knowledge at Gandan, which they say was built specially in honour of Dalai Lama, it is a two storey pa…palace, at present it is the house of our jasa (treasury). He stayed there, so he was in that pa…palace, I did not forget… in that palace. When he came he brought with him several good lharamba called as Sembee and Angi including Minai Yonzon lharamba, we call him Minai Yondon, Minai Yondon lharamba, then Dulibaa khamba of Buriyad, so they were all assembled there. (0.58.1 9) Also he came with many good maaramba. Then after his arrival he did, he visited that very two datsans, he visited once each of the two datsans. That Darva bandid was passing his exams at Gungaachoilin datsan. It was in 1904. During his visit he happened to be present at a debate of Darva bandid zindaa (0.58.38) since he himself was very fond of debate could not restrain himself and jumped up and violently entered the debate. Then the Tibetans accompanying him were very displeased. They were telling him you are the head of Buddhist religion, in this remote land you should not lose your prestige this way, you should not lose your dignity for something such trivial, and tried to prohibit him to stand up. But since he was fond of debate he stood up. So a lot of dispute and debate took place. During the debate lharambas from Tibet all stood up and took part in the deliberations. Darva bandid was a very strong debater. Interesting things are told about Darva bandid. Darva bandid was, I think, the 7th reincarnation of the Darva bandid, Darva bandid Agvaanchoinjindondov, he was the one who wrote “The sacred customs (methods) of people”. He was an interesting person, who supported (not “tatlagaar garch irsen”) the People’s Government (0.59.15), he was from Arkhangai aimag, it is now the Rashaant soum of Huvsgul aimag, so he was from Rashaant of Huvsgul. It was originally Mergen gunii khoshuu, khoshuun of Mergen gun Gombojav. So the visit of those gevshis of Dalai lama happened during the debate when Darva bandid was giving his exams for the degree of gavj. Darva bandid was very good. And at the exam Darva bandid debated on “Ninj”. So Dalai lama got up and debated the “Ninj”, Darva bandid was well versed in “Ninj”, he could not restrain his tears. So they say that Dalai Lama smiled, stroked his head and showed him this and that attention. So Darva bandid when he was in his native land he was a disciple of that very Dashchoijir lama I think. He was living in Rashaant near the border, in Rashaant soum of Huvsgul aimag. He learned books at the Darva bandid Khuree. Then he finished his main course of choir in Zayiin Khuree so he was a disciple of Zaya bandid. It was when he was young around 20 or a little over. So his principle teacher was Zaya Bandid. So he spent his days at Zayaiin khuree. And he passed his course of Dom (an exam to receive the degree of gevsh) there. After passing the Dom he presented his khadag (silk scarf of esteem) to his teacher. Then his teacher said you performed your dom very good, passed well, continue your studies. And I would like to say one thing. You should study thoroughly “Um”-yn “Ninj”-iin gor. It will be useful was the command of his teacher. So he thought what the teacher is saying I did study that Ninj he thought and paid little attention to it. But he did study carefully again the Ninj. (1.00.44) Then at that debate Dalai lam discussed from Ninj, Ninjiin gor . It is mentioned in it about that one chapter Ninjiin Um (1.00.50). So a chapter from that Ninj-iin gor was debated. Since he knew that chapter he remembered the command of his teacher and was very happy. My teacher did foresee this and instructed me to study “Ninj” he thought. This you will find in his biography. His biography is written in Tibetan. There are two volumes entitled “Biographies of Darva bandida and Agvaanchoinjin lama”. It was written by a man called Zaya-iin Yondon. In that book you will find them, it contains even the exercises used in the debate, a very interesting book. The late Dashbadrakh of the Institute of History told me that he made a translation of it. I did not see that it translated, or printed. However, 2, 3 years ago when he was still alive and well he told me about it. But the poor Dashbadrakh died. Till now I was not able ask Punsal, his wife Punsal, she should know about it. That poor Dashbadrakh knew Tibetan quite well, but I had not been able to ask from the people of the Institute of History. So the debate was recorded. Those Tibetans who were accompanying 13th Dalai lama were very surprised. So they recorded on phonograph the debate and arguments of whome, exercise of Angi Shagdar guai. Then Dalai lama got rather pompous (not “nanchildsan but “namjirdsan”)and rebuked his escorts.(1.02.04) He said you Sengee gevshten said that you know him what is of it, what happened to your mastery of books and was rather pompous and upset. Do you see this man of Ar (outer) Khalkha, this man from isolated land of Ar Khalha, what happened to you he thus scolded them. It is said that they almost lost the larjaa ( “larjaa” contest or debate not “Balairjaa”), but it was apparently not the case. Then phonograph of the debate, the exercises of that very Angi Shagdar guai was made, it is said that in Lhasa it was played and taken as a model (example). 13th Dalai lam told them now listen how that gevsh is chanting from different aimags, is there any body who could ref…refute his arguments. Then one lama that Darmaa lochin (not Darmaashil) lharamba raised his hand and said well, may I attempt to do that. So from Tibet, it was in 1900’s around 19, 18 or 19 the Government of Tibet sent him to this side to Mongolia. He was to prepare himself fully before coming to Mongolia. When he left for Mongolia that one who instructed him, Duujuran his name was Duujuran Luvsan jambaa a man about the same age with him, the Tibetans call him Dehur Dehur Ganjuurba. Dehur Ganjurba , but we call him Duujuran. There is a Tibetan aimag (1.03.08) called Deu Iden Deu Hantan (1.03.09). He was a man from Bosoolin. Then apparently he was a juran?? of that place. He had come (to Mongolia) even before Dalai lama around 1900 and 4 or 5. Then he fasted one year in the north, in Buriyad and was a very good lharamba. While staying in khuree he had been acquainted with Zavaa Damdin of Toichlan and became good friends with Zavaa Damdin guai. They had established bond of teacher and disciple and respected each other, generally the two were both very good gevshis. So they were very good acquaintances. May be Deu Juran was somewhat older than Darmaa lochin lharamba at the time he was going to Mongolia. So he paid a visit to him as an elder and told him well, I am now leaving for Mongolia. He replied: well, then when you reach Bogdyn khuree, it is called Da khuree, Da khuree, in Da khuree there is a man by the name of Luvsan Dayan, if you see him you would accomplish your task, you should see him by all means. Luvsan Dayan is in fact Zavaa Damdin, in Tibetan they refer to him as Zavuu Luvsan Dayan. So after arriving in Bogdyn khuree he met Zavaa damdin guai, other detailed accounts regarding this meeting are told also. This was told to me by Myatav and Gempil guai, these two were his disciples. They told me by the end of 80’s, it was quite interesting. Since that Deu Juran knew Zavaa Damdin guai very well he asked him to help him. So that very Darmaa lochin lharamba arrived in the khuree. After his arrival he looked for Luvsan Zavaa Damdin and met him. So they were acquainted, became good friends and established the bonds of teacher and disciple. They held high respect of each other. Then it happened one day, someone was heard talking in the hall of Darmaa lochin’s room. Angi Shagdar was a good friend of Zavaa Damdin guai they were about the same age and goods friends. He came rushing and asked where is that lharamba? When told he (lharamba) was here he said I want to see him, I want to pay a visit to him. Zavaa Damdin repeatedly said to him you should not see him, he is sitting on a eagle’s seat today. No one would be able to prevail over him, you should not see him, it is impossible. Shagdar pleaded and said that he will just exchange snuffs (meaning greet him and say a few polite words) and leave soon. So he was told to see briefly and leave. But he stayed longer than expected then they began debating, clapping their hands loudly. So those outside thought well our man could not restrain himself. So they debated about an hour. Then he (Angi Shagdar) emerged looking shattered and exhausted. Well, what happened they asked. He said well, it was as if the Bogd mountain was shr…shrouded in smoke. I am no match for him, he is an ocean of books. Well, as for me I am overwhelmed. So, in fact, he surrendered. That was how the entire Bogdyn khuree came to respect the fat lharamba (1.05.39) Then they found out that Darmaa lochin lharamba was a person who before coming to Khuree visited Ulaangom, Kyzil, Tuva and on his way back the Buriyad. So this was how he took the larjaa (win the contest). If you carefully look into these events then you will find out that led by Angi Shagdar our lamas actually surpassed in debate the Tibetans, including 13th Dalai lama himself. Outdone in that manner to win the next round they sent a man and that man was Darmaa lochin lharamba. And he did indeed won the second round. So this period was regarded as the highest point in development of religious philosophy-the choir. It may be truly so. I heard many other interesting things. Well, joint discussions of books were held, I would speak at these discussions. Our teacher the tall one, our Chantuu bagsh and others would speak saying it was only among us. They were all disciples of Angi Lama guai. They would very often speak of him. He was the only giant of the khuree. Erdenepil guai they say was a disciple of that Lama guai (“Эрдэнэпил гуайн шавь юм байна билээ” is wrong transcription). Erdenepil guai was from Sangiin aimag. Dashchii mandal sangiin aim… he was formerly working in countryside in Sangiin aimag. This place is situated at the western edge of Dalai Choinkhor khoshuu, or the present Ikh uul of Zavkhan. So Erdenepil guai did that, in this khuree he learned books in Dashchoimbol datsan, Erdenepil guai was a gavj. It appears that Erdenepil guai was a disciple of that Angi Lama or Angi Shagdar. According to what our lamas said long ago he was doing a job, Erdenepil guai, before the monasteries were closed, he was appointed to an office. He was the editor of a magazine for the lamas in addition he was serving as the librarian or something else. Then his teacher sent a word I have not seen you recently, there is a need to see you. So being a disciple of him he went to see his teacher. His teacher said to him you will achieve a lot, I wanted to give to you these, keep, do not regard them as inferior and gave him an old khadag and a monk’s robe. The robe was old and somewhat soo…sooty. It is interesting then Pil guai offered his halvaa? in Bereeven. In 44 when he defended his degree, he was clad in that robe. They say that he was saying this is the robe of my teacher and cried. It is strange but there is a thing as succession or continuity. It is interesting that good omen means a lot. We value new thoughts and good omens, and consider that everything depends on predestination and omen. In Mongolian tradition it is highly regarded. Well, I’ll stop here. What is the use of speaking too much.(1.08.09) Ishdorj Well, thank you very much. I hope that what you have told us will be kept at Cambridge University and at IAMS and will in future become a main source of oral history. Soninbayar Thank you. Ishdorj May I wish you all the best and a long life. Soninbayar Well, thank you. May your wishes come true. Ishdorj Well, Ishdorj took an interview from you. Your name is Soninbayar. Soninbayar Soninbayar Shagdarsurengiin Ishdorj Shagdarsurengiin Soninbayar. Thank you very much, we are happy to take this interview at your school, at the religious school of Gandan monastery. Soninbayar Good bye. (1.08.51)