EN060406 Work; power Interview with Person Unknown to Interviewee 1 Tömörtogoo Ishdorj The Oral History of Twentieth Century Mongolia 2006-02-26 mn XML Male Övörhangai 1943 060406 Ishdorj Well, the Cambridge University of England and the International Association for Mongol Studies together are implementing an Oral History project. So I wish to take an interview from you for the project. Before starting the interview I would like to clarify a few points with you. Well, they are the following: can we keep in the archives of the Cambridge University and International Association for Mongol Studies your interview. Tömörtogoo There is nothing to be against it, it is possible. Ishdorj Well, then if scholars want to use this interview in their research can they make use of it? Tömörtogoo If they find anything in my interview that is useful for their scientific work I have no objection to its use. Ishdorj Well, if you wish you may conceal your name? Tömörtogoo No, there is no need. Ishdorj Well, then will you please tell us anything you wish and think of? Tömörtogoo OK. I was born in autumn of 1943 in Baruun ulaan soum of present Ovorkhangai aimag. My great grand father was a man from the Khangai mountains not from the steppe between govi and khangai. The relatives of my father hailed from Azargan gol which flows from the back of Khyatarvaany mountain to the Orkhon gol in Bat-Olziit soum of Ovorkhagai aimag. They, in their time, were the otochi (physicians) who accompanied the palace of the noyan (local prince). That is why people on my father’s side are called the descendents of the physicians or descendents of Batlaa–the physicians. Aa, forefathers of my mother hailed from western Altai, they were left behind from the soldiers of Galdan Boshigt during his war campaigns, by origin they were Oirats or Oold (Oold is a corruption of the word Oirat) people who lived on the banks of Tarzyn tsagaan lake and at the confluence of Taaz gol which comes flowing from the south of the Ikh Bogd mountain, they lived on the confluence of the river and the lake earning their livelihood by crop farming on the soft sediment soil of that place so they were the descendents of the Oirat land farmers, they were thus an interesting lot. As for the forefathers of my mother it was said that they were also maaramba (a theological degree conferred on graduates of Tibetan school of medicine). My uncle on mother’s side by the name of Untsag maaramba died in 36. People on my father’s side had been through generations medicine men who treated people. That is why my father used to tell me after finishing 10th grade to attend medical school but I did not go to that school. He asked me after finishing the school to go to the school of medicine but I did not. Because when I was attending the 2nd grade I lost my mother, when I was finishing the 6th grade I lost my father so I became a child of the orphanage. Ishdorj Your name is… Tömörtogoo My name is Tumurtogoo, Dashdorjiin Tumurtogoo, then it goes like Tundviin Dashdorj, Gombyn Tundev, Batlain Gombo. My mother was Untsagiin Buyangaram “Untsag means maaramba”. The mother of Untsag was an Ööld from western Altai. Mongols make offering from their morning tea to the east from where the sun rises but the mother of Untsag it is said made the offering saying Oh, my Altai mountains and offered her tea to the west where the sun sets. Younger sister of my mother, who was born in 27, is now 80 years old by Mongolian calendar, by European calendar she is an old woman of 79 year old. I would have been a street child if it was today but in those days there were institutes that took care of orphans and looked after them. I was brought up went through these orphanages, attended school and finished it. And I was enrolled in Institute of Economics. It was the time when the Institute of economics had just been separated from the State University and there was a need to enroll students for the new institute. So the Rector of the Institute visited schools and made presentations and propaganda on the school. And the man I was asking about from you, the scholar Chimidiin Sereeter, an economist who had served as the Vice-president of the Academy of Sciences, at that time he was appointed as the rector of the new Institute of economics. He visited our school and spoke to children and invited us to become students of his institute. So I volunteered and became an economist. The reason why I had chosen economy when my father recommended me to become a doctor is that I was terribly afraid of dead man’s corpse, it always seemed to me that they were alive. However, now when some body is near death or dead and when the time of funeral comes I am called in to be at the deathbed that is how I have now to face what I once dreaded. Well, this is what I can say about my origin. So when I had become an economist my professors sent me to the Academy of sciences by distribution. In those days you could not go where you wanted to but was told to go to some place. Anyway, I had no means nor the capacity to go where I wanted, I entered the Institute barely 17 years old and graduated from it not even 21 years old. Therefore, I was a green horn who considered himself a very scholarly person but in fact one who could scarcely find his way back to home, evidently I was such a foolish and dumbfounded person at that time. Well, I worked for 18 years in the Academy of Sciences then as you know there was a stormy period in that ocean of science, by the stormy wave they had ousted their Shirendiv (the president)and vanquished their Chadraa (Vice-president) to misery. I was also thrown out. But though I was thrown out of the ocean of sciences I found myself at the shore of great ocean of books. I was sent to be an editor at the sate printing house. For 10 years I had been working on books over there. Afterwards I served as the economic advisor until my retirement on pension and became an old pensioner. This is my life. If you ask what do you have in your mind that would leave some trace in history, I studied the labour of Mongolian nomadic economy. Probably, no one has yet studied that specific subject. I stayed with herder’s family, watched and followed the herder, made a register of his daily routine, how many hours he spent on what kind of job etc and wrote a book entitled “Labour of livestock breeding”. I wanted to make it in two volumes and put number one at the first book published. While I was working on the second volume I began to doubt was there any use of publishing that one or not and did not publish it. That was research material on history such as many hours a Mongol would spend on milking sheep if they tie them together, how hours are spent rearing the young animals if there is a fence and so many hours if there is no fence etc, so it was a research material on history. If the findings were summarized and conclusions were made it could have become a base material for application in setting labour norms and calculating the payment of herders, but at that time there was no support both material and moral to make that findings a book. So I had to abandon it. When I was working in the Institute people started talking about stagnation in development of Mongolian animal husbandry, so I wrote a paper on stagnation and about the urgency to overcome it and sent it to the Central Committee (of the party). Then I was called to the chairman of the Agricultural Department a man by the name of Khandyn Gurjav who said to me “ Sonny take this thing back, you might get into a lot of trouble by propagating and talking things like this” and gave the document back to me. Well, if he had not given me back that paper but informed and transmitted it further to the appropriate instances saying that “this comrade is propagating such a (negative) idea”, it is hard to guess in what situation I would have found myself today. “Animal husbandry of Mongolia is not developing because of these, and these are the main obstacles. The productivity of animal husbandry is declining, that is why while Mongolia has over 10 million heads of animal the people are queuing after meat etc”, and along this line I wrote a lot of queer things. Price on meat is growing I went on and put down many odd summarizations on that paper. But that man gave it back to me. But besides that may be because there were medicine men on both sides of my father and mother or it was already in blood or in bones who knows for instance I could write myself a prescription and get prescription drugs from the pharmacy or could write prescription for some one else I was such a strange economist who had an interest in medicine. For example, if someone said that he had dislodged his fingers I’d fix it, or if someone had head ache I’d press at two points and the pain would disappear. For practicing this kind thing I was registered with 6th department of the Internal Security organ. A man came to me showed an ID card with traverse red line and explained me something relating to the law on health, and said that only professional doctors have the right to treat people medically but not unprofessional amateurs and a lot of other things and I had to sign a paper (vowing that I’d not engage in this any more), and I was put under surveillance and prohibition that was yet one failure of mine. Because of that I was denied the right to publish, all what I wrote was rejected for some time. Those who wrote something about the teachings of Marx or on Leninism as well as on party were published but when I wrote about traditions of Mongolian people it was shelved for a while and returned back so for quite some time all what I wrote was not published, I was not allowed to work, expelled from the Academy and at the end I had become an editor whose job was to correct (lit. to remove louses) and make amendments to writings and translations of others. So I spent a few years away from various contention and controversy then this democracy had arrived and the time of spying, wiretapping of our own citizens and imposing restraints has become a thing past. That 6th department was abolished and it has become easier to pursue one’s interest. With that my inclination to cure and treat began to blossom. A commission headed by Badgaa guai on extrasensory perception or exceptional talent was founded. (Before that) there were individuals who came during the night secretly to see me when I was living at our summer camp. Not mention that even when I went on my summer vacation to the country side, people began to crowd to see me from early morning, during the day no one came but as soon as it got dark people began to arrive. Therefore, sometimes I used to put on fur coat and went away, lay at the marmot borrow and returned after midnight to my tent, things went even that far. Then the democracy arrived, life had become easier, I began to cure people but too many patients were coming to see me so I wrote a letter to Ministry of Health. But I received a reply stating that a nonprofessional must not engage in medical practice and crowd people around. It further alleged that those patients who had been treated by you were not cured, they had received only temporary relief. I have been tested by at least two different authorities and one of them gave me a letter that made allegations that “this person may be not in sound mind”. So I published a book on cure from distance and included that very letter in the book. In my book I described how my treatment from distance without touching my patients affected them and what changes were observed after the treatment which included such as sweating profusely, increased discharge of urine and as result of the discharge of body liquid, lowering of blood pressure, in some instances disappearance of tophus or chalkstones. Over 10 different changes were recorded as a result of the treatment which I described in the book detailing what were the changes and how it was manifested. And the book was published thanks to the fact that the censorship was not there anymore. After that I unsuccessfully tried have some of my works get printed if in the past you received remuneration for publishing a book but now you have to pay to get it published. Since I had no money for 6 years I was unable to publish my books. Then in 99 an acquaintance of mine sponsored the publication of my book without any charge for me. Since then I have been able to publish my books on economics, on non-medicinal treatment, on extrasensory perception as well as books on teachings of Buddha. Well, this is the situation now. I am now in my 60’s, reached the age of 63, 64. I’ll not live for another 60 years. Therefore, I intend to leave behind me my observations and what I want to tell to my descendents. If you reflect there were probably mistakes and omissions in the general theory of the old regime but it was a different government compared to the present one, it was, in any case, a government that helped the poor to improve their life. That socialist doctrine has not been thrown out completely out of intellectual depository of humanity, in different forms than it was in our country, suited to the given conditions it still exists in countries like Sweden, Denmark and Finland, I believe that form of socialism may well to reemerge. I think that the concept of socialism and its moral values can not be expelled that easily from the intellectual tresures of humanity. Aan the present democracy we have now is obviously very different from what I expected to be democracy, may be because I am not that well acquainted with democracy written in books. You know there was this Dashbalbar, Ulaan sahiust Dashbalbar (man with red guardian god) his name was Ochirbatyn Dashbalbar. The anchor of the news cast asked him during an interview on TV “What is your impressions about the golden swallows of the democracy?”. His reply was there is no golden swallows of democracy but the crows of anarchism. At the time when he said this I wondered and thought something along line what did he mean by that. But the wise man before me saw that those who were talking about democracy, in fact, apparently already in those days had become anarchists. Today even though the general trend towards democracy is still there, in principle, it has become impossible to implement it (its principles). In the past Mongols prayed “May spirit of the state bless me” in this way they prayed and respected their state, on the first day of the Tsagaan sar (Lunar new year), my people used to pray on the Ovoo (ceremonial stone pile on mountain top) looking towards the direction of the capital city. But during the last few years the state was forced to loose its prestige and credibility. The respect to the state has been lost. Things went so wrong that one wants to pray “May the spirit of the state be blessed”. I surmise something about these people who are now at the head of the state, also the names of the leaders of the Mongolian state of the of the last one hundred years and the leaders of the past century, and the reason why some of them left this world. For example Namnansuren met an unnatural death. Aan, Chin Van Khanddorj died of unnatural cause. There is doubt concerning the death of Sukhbaatar, I think that there are doubts concerning the death of Choibalsan. It is my personal view point. We know Demid was executed. Genden was executed on day of declaration of the state. Prime Minister Amar was executed on the day anniversary of revolution, they were executed one on 10 July and the other on 26 November. So execution of statesmen on day of his state celebration, apparently, was considered as something of great respect to the victim. For instance Japan arrested Russian spy Rihard Zorge and executed in Sugama prison on 7 November. So in my opinion out of the respect to the person he was executed in the day of state celebration. In this way our Genden and Amar were executed with due respect. Bodoo, Shagdarjav and Danzan were executed around 24 August. So that date-the 24th August might have been a day to express respect to the Mongolian statesmen. Then Dambadorj, Tserenochiryn Dambadorj also died. In olden days Mongolian statesmen were executed in Beijing including the Tsengunjav of Khotgoid. Later they were killed in the capital Khuree but eventually they perished while being in Moscow. Three Marshals of Mongolia died over the northern boarders. So I assume that leaders of a small country are always dependent on great powers. Good or bad in any case they are always under the close watch of those great powers. Our descendents should always keep this in mind. Mongolia will not grow in size but it will, probably, shrink further. So if one is an outstanding statesman or someone who holds influential position in society then that man is always under close watch of the great powers, he has to be and it has been always like this until now. And great powers keep them under their influence politically or in some other way under their supervision. It was so in case of Dambadorj, Tsedenbal and many others could be named. I published an article in newspaper entitled “Tsagaan sar and black tears” (White month and black tears) on this subject. On the first day of Mongolian tsagaan sar many people died after being fed poison, they number more than the ten fingers on your hands. Sukhbaatar died on the 6th day of Tsagaan sar. Choibalsan died on the eve of Tsagaan sar, it was so according to the calendar but, in fact, by the rise of sun it happened on the first day of Tsagaan sar. Aan, well, Sain Noyon Khan Namnansuren on Tsagaan sar visited Bogd and drank poisoned arkhi(spirit) and died because of it. It happened to Khand Chin Van so many people died during the holiday of Tsagaan sar. That is why big politicians of small states are always under the close eye of big powers if that can not be qualified as the axiom then it can, obviously, be called as a theorem. It is true for influential statesmen of Mongolia even today. I know for sure at least of some influential figures who died on 2 October. I know the person called Daramyn Tumurochir. I know the person called Sanjaasurengiin Zorig. It may be suggesting something also, there is some reason behind the date of 2 October. I don’t know the reason. That is to say when the state is small this does not mean that the statesmen are also small. Now Mongols are going to celebrate the 800th anniversary of founding of the Mongolian statehood. It is an anniversary of founding the united Mongolian state. But there are nations who historically never had a united state and until now live in 5 different countries, I am referring to the Kurds, who have never built their own state. They live in Russia, Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Azerbaijan, they are scattered in Asia minor, more than one million Kurds live around the southern slopes of Caucasus mountains. They have not even had an autonomy of their own in history. Therefore, it is my belief that there is a predestination for a state to exist independently. There is such a thing as the fate or predestination of an individual conditioned by the date and the given week day that individual’s birth. Who knows may be there is also predestination of a nation. I began to think that there are small nations that exist and flourish, keep their hearth fire burning. On this premise, for example, I have serious doubt in validity of the works that claim in 21 Mongolia was seeking for the means of its survival and had chosen Russia for support and the generous Russia helped our country to rise on its feet. In those days there was no way to escape from Russia likewise it was out of question to become a part of China. Mongolia did not want to be under the Chinese influence, but it was impossible to seek the support of distant America and Japan separated by the Sea had no aspiration nor possibility to lend support. So there was no other option but to rely on Russia this is what I think of late. Before that in11 both Mongolia and Chine freed themselves from Manchu rule but until now people write as if Mongolia was under the Chinese domination. They assume that we were under Chinese rule while we were under Manchu domination and both Mongolia and China regained their independence from Manchu state. By logic of matters the two were to support each other but the Chinese wanted to swallow Mongolia this I came to understand after reading a lot of books. Then those who opposed being swallowed by the Chinese were disappearing. Aan after 21, apparently, those who disagreed to follow the Russian footsteps but develop independently began to disappear. This is what appears to be the case. The process that is now called as the political repression and we speak about the extermination lamas and political figures. If you observe it carefully besides killing and extermination of countless number of people whose sculls and clothes and belongings are brought out and stupa and shrines are being built in honour of the victims, you wonder what was the principle aim of that killing besides the methods and mechanism of that being extremely aggressive and rude. Then it dawns on you that it was a policy to wipe out all the nobles of Chinggis descendents who would have been able and could lead the nation into the future. (0.27.45) This is what now I think. Aan the communist doctrine to bring poor and destitute to the ruling position of the state holding high the slogan “Unite the proletariat of very land” generated the mentality of poor during that given period. It had become impossible to be a child of well to do, even those wealthy began to feel that it was better to be poor and considered their capital-the livestock as a burden for which they could be charged with criminal offense. They started to think how get rid of the livestock and this the mentality of poor spread and took hold. As you know I was engaged for some time in studying the psychology of rural people. What I found out was that for the first time in the last 300 years a condition was created under which Mongolian people believed that being poor was better than being wealthy. It was a mentality imposed by the two great powers surrounding us. Mongols followed the teaching “Conquer the world and strengthen your state, after that develop yourself”. According the teaching they had been educating themselves and improved wellbeing. But for the last 300 years we were in hands of alien state and a narrow minded thinking took root so Mongols gave up their thought about statehood and in the first place thought of their homes and then about themselves. During the Manchu period those who fought for he nation’s statehood lost their heads. It was the rule. It was so during the Manchu rule, it was true during Marshal’s period (a reference to Marshal Choibalsan), after that it continued. Therefore, aspiration to strengthen our state, past experience of that, moral virtues do to that had weakened in the past. People abandoned the thought to get rich and they preferred to be called as sons and daughters of poor livestock breeders and thus they replied the questionnaire, the aspirations to be so had been deeply rooted. It found its reflection in the literature as well. You can see it in biographies of various people. In a cinema called “The son-in-law” to the end when the main character Demberel had been awarded the title of Hero of Labour Merited Artist Osor playing the role of the chairman of the soum speaking from the rostrum says: “Son of poor herder Sanjidyn Demberel had fulfilled the conditions for becoming a Hero of Labour”. It is itched into my mind. So it was such a time that it was necessary to stress that one was an offspring of a poor herdsman. Because of that well to do people were regarded with disdain and despised as the rich. Wealthy and industrialized foreign countries were considered as the capitalists, attempts were made to keep distance from them, the regime was afraid (from the capitalists) like plague, so kept its boarders and customs closed and lived in that manner. Due to this in economic thinking, apparently, less thought was given to increasing national resources and improving it performance. Aan because of this it had become a custom to underestimate the resources of our own country, the work of our intellectuals. It was so with regard to the wealth under our soil and to the potential created by our people, in particular, intellectual properties and creations were not evaluated properly. As of today, Mongols have not reached the stage to evaluate intellectual property. But physical strength is highly valued, everyone knows Bayanmunch, Mounkhbat (Champion wrestlers) and now Davgadorj and Davaajargal (Grand champions of Sumo). But I don’t know how many people heard about Namsrai, a recognized world scientist. I can say confidently that if you ask them who is scientist Namsrai then not speaking thousands of herders, but intellectuals and even our leaders will retort back he is a scientist in which field and what has he accomplished. So how many people among the Mongols appreciate and evaluate scientist Namsrai as a physicist, and as a distinguished expert in this field known to the world. For example, how many people know and value mathematician Dasdorj, professor of the national University. Likewise how many know and regard highly composer such as Sansargerelt and Jantsannorov. Instead of above composers, probably, many know a writer of popular songs Chuluunkhuu, I think this is indication of the level of understanding and evaluation. The root cause of this is we have abandoned evaluation and intellect and are living and paying too much attention materialistic sides of things, and live without looking deeper into the essence of life, this is my critical appraisal. This can be proved from different stands of point. For example composer of symphony is not given due merit while writer of popular songs are respected, not the solo singers of aria and romances but chansonnier is respected, while evaluating literary writers, writers of theoretical work are left out, we are at such a level evaluation. We leave without appreciating skilled pilot of race car but value highly public bus driver this is the present level of our evaluation. Because of this there is a brain-drain of scientists and people with high intellectual potential. We do not have the capacity to create material conditions of work for those young people who are now working in IBM or developing in MICROSOFT of Bill Gates new WINDOWS programmes. Because of this modern young people with more brain power and good perspectives are leaving the country for Japan, Germany and Singapore to find work and live there. At the same time because of the lack of state policy we are loosing not only man power but youth with high intellectual potential to foreign countries. If this trend continues it will bring irreparable loss. Even today we feel its impact. Because we are exporting young males as work force abroad, divorce rate has risen, many children are growing fatherless, young mothers are experiencing hardship without their husbands. There is no state policy to regulate this problem. When we speak of state policy our politicians take it as politics and talk of politics only rather than politics based on economy or economic politics or implementing such policy. As a result development of economic policy is lagging behind, development of priority sectors of economy, training specialists of that sector, investing in these sectors are not well thought and the policy being implemented in this area don’t foresee even the perspective of 5 years ahead. Due to this the growth rate of population is declining at an alarming speed. The history of population growth has proved that this is a irreversible trend, we had already reached that point. Present government of Mongolia will not be able to reverse this trend at least in coming 20 years. If you look at this problem superficially then it would seem that this decline is being organized through family planning and abortion we are living under these circumstances. Because of this the population growth rate plunged 10 folds. Mongols who lived on a vast territory, scattered around, are now entering a period when they live crowding around two, three big cities. This is the most vivid manifestation of the erroneous demographic policy as well as economic policy of the present government. They talk of declaring war on poverty but this policy being implemented would seem declaring war on the poor. It is hard to say how many of the top leaders of the state have read the theories of economy. Ruling a state means not ideology but economy. In the past Tsdedenbal, Batmolunkh, Sodnom and Jasrai were all economists. Today one who is not an economist by profession is being appointed as the Minister of Finance. How a man who does not understand the financial terminologies can manage the financial resources. For example if one while paying the rent for apartment leave out the electricity bill without paying that household will meet disaster. Exactly in the same way, a policy intentionally to wreck the economy is now(0:39:59) being implemented. I think that it is being done by a few young people, there are advisors behind them. Starting from Jeffrey Saks, economists from Japan and America instructed and advised, and they, in fact, began to develop the state policy. I think it was they who taught them what to do. Though these people speak of improving economy of the country, in real life, it declined further, too many mineral deposits are not only being exploited unconstructively but also being devastated. If in the past these deposits were exploited according to a plan now they are being plundered intentionally. I wrote and published a very venomous article on this issue. I have many venomous and biting articles which can not be published. As I mentioned previously now this abortion is not a family planning. Likewise those who are in power now can not correct or improve the economic situation of the country in near future though they speak of improving. If you ask why they can’t do that, they don’t consult those who studied economics and even if they do they do not implement their recommendations, such a government can not upgrade the economy of the country. I personally think the government we have now is the worst government we had in our history. Why am I saying this, I think that people who traded the state affairs for their wallet affairs are now in power. In the past people were executed, that period was before my birth. So people were afraid to say anything because of its possible consequence. Now I will not live again for yet another 60 years and I am afraid of nothing, I think that this state is pursuing a policy that is bankrupt, decadent, rotten and weathered. And I think it is being done intentionally. If you ask what is the object, in my opinion, it is a manipulation carried out for the big transnational companies and corporations of great powers. Economics beginning with very simple issues of everyday life, through politics can impact the military policies of a country as such it has far-reaching implications. In Mongolian language the word government or governance sounds remote. Our people apparently understand economics to mean money and capital, questionnaires to fill, salaries and tugrug to recieve. However, humanity exist governed by economics, live under economic governance. Though it is thought that we live under governance of the state or government, in effect, we are under economic governance. If we do not understand that we live under the power of money and can not manage it correctly then governance of state can not become governance. If political independence is not secured by economic independence then that independence will be lost. The united Mongolian state founded by Chinggis Khaan, the 800th anniversary of which we are observing now, continued to exist because its state independence was assured by its economic independence. Many think of Chinggis Khaan and write about him as an arrogant and aggressive creature….obsessed by conquest and murder who galloped on the back of horse chopped and killed everyone. But in truth it may have been his second nature, the first one was his economic policy. When it had become impossible to trade freely and could not arrive to accord through negotiations, he had to resort to the language of swords and this is the third stage of his life we talking about. Since I started trying my hands on the study of history of the Mongolian economic thinking for more than 20 years have passed. After I have published series of articles related to the history of Marxist economic thinking in Mongolia in journal “National Economy”, following after the disappearance of the surveillance and prohibition, elimination of the office censorship of literature I started publishing my works. Since then I have published a number of things on Mongolian economic thinking. Recently this year (0:46:04) the first volume my independent aan a monograph devoted to a single subject was printed. I finished it dealing with the period of founding the united Mongolian state. I tried to point out, for instance, the distinction of economic thinking of Mongols from that of other countries and nations. In order to underline the distinctive nature of Mongolian economic thinking whether has it something to do with that flat nose and narrow eyes or in something else I included a special chapter. There are distinctions. Mentality of Mongol man is different from that Chinese man. What is the reason for that, in Mongolia , there was and is the nomadic livestock breeding. This is different from sedentary or settled animal husbandry, it is different from other forms of animal husbandry on pasture. Animal husbandry was a different form of economy, different from land farming, different from industry. This form of economy creates a peculiar form and mode of thinking. Aan in that nomadic economy a different thinking of nomads is formed. They have different way of perception than the sedentary people. It has several peculiar features. For instance it is a custom to accumulate things, a tradition to store goods. A Chinese man would cut or reduce his own consumption in order to save. He may wear rag tag cloth but counts every coin (money) for saving is embedded their mentality. And he dies without using them up. There were many instances in Mongolia when hidden assets of Chinese were found here and there. In May 1999 from earth brought to the house near the school No. 3 from the northern side of the Geser monastery a lot of Mexican silver dollars or the so called Taygt coins (with imprint of man with walking stick) were found. Children playing on the earth found them called police and military the coins were counted and taken away. What happened was on the east side of the Tasgan hillock at the territory of present 6th sub-district Chinese immigrants were living in dug-out shelters until they became well off financially, moved to this side and built their houses thus the 9th street of Chinese immigrants emerged, eventually, it grew in size and became a district of Chinese peddler traders. But may be because the owner was decreased or for some other reasons the buried valuables were not taken and those Mexican dollars, which were in circulation during the period of Bogd Khaan’s Mongol state, were recovered from the eastern side of Tasgan hillock on the north of the Geser monastery. On the coin there was an imprint of tall man with walking stick that is why our people called the coin Tayagt (with the stick). A lot of that coins were dug out. There were more occasions like this. But the Mongols did not save things, not to mention of money and coins they even did not store assets. If you ask why they did not store because the goods stored became a burden for nomadic life style. So it was impossible to store goods. It was impossible to get rich. As for assets, if Mongol herder had asset it had be something that had to be easily carried during the move and transportable. Because of that there were no Mongols who had a permanent house, fences or a Mongol with estate, therefore, there were no estates nor palaces like in Europe. The Mongols had plenty of opportunities to build a house or a hut as the Chinese and settle down but they used to erect their gers and continued to live on move. Even there was no Mongols who had two gers. Sedentary people with permanent domicile can store last years green and hay and feed their animal, for the Mongol it is almost impossible to store even the cashmere of last year. It is an extra burden, if you don’t process and make goods anything that is stored has no value. That is why Mongols lack the mental attitude for storing. An outstanding representative of Mongolian intelligence Saint Danzanravjaa said the following. “Don’t be greedy in amassing, be skilled in rational spending”. I consider that these two lines reflect the main concept of economic thinking of Mongols succinctly. So I had put these words on every page of the book I have had recently printed. If we render this “Don’t be greedy in amassing, be skilled in rational spending” in modern business world language it means “Money can be made but it should be spent wisely”. (0:51:41) It exactly correspond the notion that spending money is difficult while making it is easier. Well, secondly yet another peculiarity of Mongols thinking is their lukewarm attitude and view of commercial activities. Traders are looked down and called somewhat teasingly as profiteers and speculators, they were viewed as inferior to those who are engaged in livestock breeding. Mongols had never put commerce in the first place. Because they lacked both the opportunity to engage in trade and the need to do that. For a herder who owned…. five kinds of animals the need to buy something was very little. Livestock supplied all the items he required food, clothes, entertainment like racing and other sports, in general, his needs were almost entirely met by his livestock. When one has five kinds of animals he has horse to ride, means of transport, so you have goods to transport, horse to ride, horse to race, airag to drink, milk spirit to entertain your guest, ankle bones to play with, blanket and quilt, clothes and dung to burn so almost everything was generated by the livestock. You sheer the sheep, whip and process the wool to make felt…slaughter sheep process the skin and make warm robe, milk cows and make cheese, boil the milk and skim the cream so, in general, the consumption and production activities run overlapping each other, simultaneously without any gap for trade and commercial activities in between. There was no barter trade, consumption and production run together, there was almost no stage of trading in between. It was the economy. Aa, that wool was sheared, animals were slaughtered for provision and skins and hides were produced, all these process took place at the same time among the livestock breeders, raw materials are prepared simultaneously and disappear almost simultaneously, therefore, generally, there is not surplus of skin, hides or meat, wool and milk to sell to others. This way the demand and supply as well as opportunity to trade both were exhausted, if you wanted to sell consumers were not Mongols. Because of this the buyers were foreigners not Mongols. And therefore anyone engaged in trade happened to be non-Mongols. In the Secret History which had been an object veneration that contained state secrets of Mongols for 7, 8 hundred years mention is made about only one trader by the name of Hasaan. It is mentioned that he met Chinggis khan while traveling after buying one thousand wether (castrated full grown male sheep), pelts of mink and squirrels, he was an Uzbek man, a Sartuul trader. In national opera “Among the three hills” depicting the life (Aj amidral -life not industry as in the text) of Mongolia of 19th century, written by Natasagdorj, founder of modern Mongolian literature, there is a trader, a Tibetan trader. Mongols call a Chinese man “naimaa”. (Which means as noun a trader and as verb to bargain) Regardless of whether that man is engaged in commerce or not if two Chinese men were walking they would say two naimaa were walking. Chinese settlements were called settlement of Naimaa. There was a Chinese settlement near the capital Khuree called Elbeg Amgalan gatsaa, the present Amgalanbaatar township was called the naimaachin (trader) of the Khuree. Aan the Chinese settlement in Khiagt (a small town on northern boarder) was called Khiagtyn naimaachin. So Chinese settlements were called a place of commerce and Chinese man was called a naimaa, in general 70, 80 percent of domestic trade in Mongolia was in the hands of Chinese. That is why Mongols called Chinese man not a china man but a naimaa. The naimaa simply meant Chinese man. When I was a small kid in the centre of Ovorkhangai there lived 6 or 7 Chinese men their house was called trading place and they were called Tsagaan naimaa, Buyant naimaa, Dalai naimaa etc. I am originally from Ovorkhangai. Mongols looked down at commerce, considered it as a bad occupation or inferior deed this might have had some influence. According to some concept in teachings of Buddhist religion it is considered that commercial activities contaminate men’s mind. For instance for Mongols livestock which is a material wealth, it is not only a material wealth but has become a spiritual wealth. Mongols are very proud of their beautiful horses, swift race horses, good mounts, cows that yields plenty of milk and beautiful camels. Even if they don’t belong to him he enjoy by the sight of them. He would say that a man of our khoshuun or aimag has such a wonderful horse and would be happy to boast about something that does not even belong to him and that way he would enjoy happiness at heart to such an extent that livestock has become his spiritual wealth. But they will not hold commerce that high. That one sold a beautiful thing or had bought a beautiful item have not developed to such an extent as to become a spiritual wealth. When trading the Mongols, even today’s peddlers at market, would say “let the item bring its blessings to both of us the seller and the buyer.” Because they believe that in trading both the buyer and seller remain not fully satisfied. The reason behind it is in trading you make profit only if you sell the item at higher price. Because of it seller feels that he sold the item cheaper while the buyer feels that he paid more than it really costs and thinks that if I bought it from some where else I could have paid less and feels unsatisfied. The seller also feels unsatisfied because he would think if I went to some other place and sold it I should have sold it at higher price. Therefore, trading is considered a cause of dejection. That is why there is a lack of elation. If the buyer is overjoyed and happy because he bought the item cheaply then the seller would be downhearted because he had sold the item at low price and feels stingy, it is believed due to that his mind is downcast. According to the concepts of oriental philosophy mind is more precious than body and mind is more precious than properties and any deed that dampens the mind is considered to be a bad deed. It goes even further like this since goods are sold at added price the seller artificially escalates the price, they tell lie selling brass for gold, barley for rice in this manner increase the quality of goods falsely, or they manipulate the weight scales thus cheat the customers this way they commit an awful sin. That sin committed by body is one of the ten sinful deeds. Sin in speech, sin in body, sin in mind include the sin committed by misuse of weighting scales and cheat people thus give and acquire this is considered as an sinful deed. When one talk about acquiring what has fallen to you or given by people obviously think it means stealing. But besides stealing acquiring what came in or given to you by various methods such as cheating, extortion, stealing, robbing and swindling are considered to be of the same nature. What is given can divided in many different categories. If one took something but did not give it back then it is cheating, if one seizes something away by force before your eyes it is robbery. Aan if one takes something without the knowledge of the owner then it is stealing. These are classified into different categories that can be interpreted in this or that way for instance if one stoles possessions of an ordinary man it is such a sin, if he stoles something from his mother and father it is such kind of sin, if he stoles the possessions of his lord or masters then it is a sin of that kind, if one stoles something from lama teacher who has become like his own father then it is a sin of this kind etc these acts are classified in religious book of teachings. It is contained in the chapter which explains the “10 sinful deeds” in a sutra entitled “Тонилхийн чимэг” (Jewels of dispeller).So in commerce and trade if one cheats customers by manipulating scales and weights this will be a sin. If a merchant sells his good escalating the price falsely and sold brass for gold then it will constitute such a kind of sin etc. they all are clearly pointed out that is one of the reasons why Mongols looked down and considered commerce as a bad activity. If you dig down further there is one more reason which is hard for many (without a special knowledge) to comprehend. Even today Mongols would not to buy something sold by a trader which is cheaper but prefer to buy the more expensive one. The reason for that is the belief that it is not good to buy goods sold by a cold hand, in other words, sold by a bad individual but it is better to buy something being sold by good or reliable man, for selling means that the goods were in possession of that very person and they prefer to buy a snuff bottle from a good man for high price. This is a fact. The origin of this belief resides even deeper and comes to secret spells of esoteric and explained by the belief that energy of the owner is infused in any item used by him, there is such a curious thing. Mongols would drink, take or buy at double price what the teacher has been using but would be reluctant to buy things on the market. There is such a way thinking among Mongols. This, at the long run, conforms with the traditions of prajna paramita (knowledge of biramid). So it comes to the traditions of Sembe Zamba where you could find some vague explanations of it. That is the why Mongols look at commerce and trade not in terms of goods but in their thinking they hold high respect to the owner of that goods. This is a conclusion you can make. Based on these various elements in economic thinking of Mongols livestock breeding stands high than trade and commerce. Even today many still look at commerce as not very worthy activity. This thinking has been eroded by the passage of time. This is one of the outstanding features. And there are many other peculiarities if you were continue further on this subject. Then when you peruse over all these you will see that general nature of economic thinking of Mongol man has no single established form it has been evolving and progressing, however, it is different than that of China. There is no such thing as growing vegetable in Mongolian way, it can’t be done, there is no way of raising rabbits or chickens in conformity with Mongols thinking, Mongols have their own peculiar thinking suited to livestock breeding. Take for instance the Mongolian wooden carts which has no perfectly circular wheels, an outsider who sees it may think that these poor Mongols, at the end of the 20th century, are still unable to make a around wheel, they are still not able to make the wheels for their cart. But when the Mongols make almost quadrangular wheels(with four spokes) for ox cart, in order to make them they first drive the ox and measure the length of steps of four legs of the ox and make the them to suit the (õàñìàã) movement of oxen. The reason for it lies in the fact that in places where these wooden carts are used in khangai (mountainous) region there are many mountain passes and hills, on the steep uphill where one almost has to crawl it is impractical to use perfectly circular wheels. Because such wheels down hill push from the behind of oxen and in going up hill drag downward and cause a lot of suffering to the animals far more than the burden on it, therefore the wheel is made in such way that with one step forward of the ox it rolls and stops, without pushing forward or dragging back, it is the tradition to make such wheels intentionally. So bigger wheels are made in carts drawn by big oxen, for carts of smaller oxen smaller wheels that is to say wheels fitted to the size of the animals and in two, three years when animal grows up wheels are changed to bigger size. An intellectual from the city, guests from abroad or a visitor will not understand it. They will think that in Mongolia wheels remain the same since the time it was invented by the humanity. An intellectual from the city, foreign guest, visitors none of them will understand it (the reason why it shaped that way). They will see it think that in Mongolia the wheels still keep its original shape since humanity began making the wheels. Aa this is something that emerged from truly Mongolian wisdom and from the specific conditions of livestock breeding. Aan in steppe zones where horse or camel carts are used no such wheels, described before, are in use. The wheels of camel carts are after all much higher and bigger, wheels of horse carts are light and n…n…n… slender. It is called tsuutsen tereg (thin or sleek cart). As for the coach it is depicted on petroglyph (painting on stone)of the stone age period and the wheels of that coach is perfectly circular. So even then in bronze age in B.C. people could make that, that horse coach with perfectly circular wheels, it is painted on the cliff of Bichightiin khad (Cliff of scripts) can be found in the south of Bayankhongor (aimag). But today Mongols of Arkhangai aimag who have ox carts use that quadrangular wheels. So it is truly a product of genuine Mongol reasoning. This reasoning is different from that of China or Russia not speaking of Britain or America. However, for Mongols the possibility to keep that way thinking conditioned by nomadic animal husbandry has been shrinking and become more and more limited, and it is changing. In market economy, there is no other option than to sell what you have. Because of this who Mongols had in the past huge wethers, you had to raise their tails so that they could push out their droppings, oxen of enormous size with weathered horns, camels with huge humps almost as tall as a standing man however, now, in this society, they(cattle breeders) have no other option than to sell their year old lambs and year old calves. Therefore, in today’s environment market mentality is the factor that is changing Mongol mentality. There is another outstanding feature of Mongols’ mentality that is not present in the Western mentality. Mongols do not treasure possessions but cherish knowledge they say riches in possessions is the worst, riches in children is the average while riches in knowledge is the best of all riches. And they can easily explain it to you why. For example now in Europe top magazines rank people by their wealth and the most wealthy man is ranked in the first place and they want to live like him, bow before him and respect him immensely and are dieing to see him in person. In essence if you look into it deeper it is respect of the wealth not the owner of the wealth. Aan, in orient, specially the Mongols say a rich man looses his wealth in a storm, a single bullet takes away the life of a heroic man. Because a man can get rich but looses everything in a storm, and that is why people do not attach much importance to it. One may be rich but there is rarely a wealthy man of three generations. There are many instances when one may loose his or her belongings but do not care very much about it. When you consider these and look whether it is only the Mongols who are like this, and scrutinize is it the right or not, what is the good in it, what the wrong etc there are things that should be kept as well that should be discarded, there are both the good and bad things. Since it is issues related to human life there is no such thing as only bad or only good. According to oriental wisdom it is bad to treasure only the wealth. It is said that he who has wealth has the grudge and he who has the power has the sin. Because they(wealth and power) taint one’s mind. So the saying that wealth taints one’s mind means that the mind is the most precious thing but it is tainted by wealth. When one has wealth there is the stinginess, once there is the stinginess your mind is tainted and sins are accumulated, you become possessive and begrudging thus you become like a dog in this manner it goes even further. Therefore, it is good to learn how spend wisely as advised by Ravjaa rather than to accumulate. Because of this attitude to everyday life and a way of living suited to the prevailing conditions oriental (Mongol) people when death comes they usually have no accumulated assets but only a few heads of animals, this was the situation and his children would share his livestock. That was the end. If you look at it from the perspective of whether it is a certain standard applicable to the Mongols only or to humans in general, then you will find out that the assets left behind at the most become possessions of his children or relatives, there is not a single man (Mongol) whose assets have become part of the heritage of mankind. Shakespeare had no wealth, but the intellectual creations of Shakespeare have become the heritage of mankind. There was no wealth of Pushkin (A.S). But works by Puskhin have become a heritage of mankind. They say that when Mahatma Gandhi, who is known as the great thinker of the orient died from the bullet of a fanatic, all the possessions he had were his eyeglasses, slippers and the walking stick. He had left any other personal belongings. However, his intellectual works have become part of the intellectual creations of the mankind. That is why it would seem that the Mongols are right when they consider intellectual (not “ed” as transcribed in the text but “erdem”) wealth as the best of all wealth. When Myal Bogd, he is called Myalraav, a great Tibetan scholar, died what he left were just like Gandhi slippers, rosary and walking stick, at that time eyeglasses were not available. But a book entitled “The biography of Myal” has spread all over the world. I have seen its translations in English, Germany, Russian and Mongolian languages. It is known that in 1630 Tsogt taij had “The biography of Myal” translated into Mongolian. He commissioned the translation work to Guush(renown translator) Tsorji of Houkh hota and when he received the words the translation was completed he sent three riders from the present Dashinchilen area in winter around the 15th of the first month of lunar new year to bring it. So three riders from present Bulgan rode to Khoukh khota and brought that book. So this is an indication how highly scriptures were regarded. Today even if told to fly over to Koukh and bring a book one would probably reject it and say why don’t they send it by post. So on one side Mongols cherish intellect, on the other side if you give your belongings to somebody else then you are left without that possession. For instance a man who has 1000 dollars if he gives that away then he himself is left with no money. If he divides the money into two and give to two persons each will have 500 dollars but not 1000 dollars each. If you share or teach your knowledge to the other person both of you will have the knowledge. If you teach to 20 people, 20 persons will have the knowledge this way it can go further 21 etc. If you were to give material presents to 20 persons the outcome will be different. That is why it is said that intellectual wealth grows as long as you can give (transfer) it to others and this is the reason why material and intellectual wealth can not be compared, intellectual wealth is beyond compassion with material wealth. There is yet another interesting explanation. That is to say that your knowledge and skill can not be stolen from you, you will not sell it, you will never become impoverished that is why knowledge is considered to be the best of the wealth a man may possess. And, therefore, they say that possessions come by itself to a wise and educated man without any effort to find (make)them. That is the reason why Mongols view material wealth as less important than wealth of knowledge. That is why while they themselves had been wearing sheep skin robes Mongols wrapped sutras and scriptures in silk and brocades. I stressed that there are such and such peculiarities. So it will probably take quite some time before Mongols start thinking in the western manner, but still their way of thinking is being corrupted and changing. Ishdorj As you can see today during the democracy all those new things (all these notions have acquired new meanings) have been changed. What do think about it. Tömörtogoo Of course, they have. The time has arrived when not the educated one but the wealthy, not the wise but those with money are respected. I joke many of the old concepts of Mongols have been distorted. For example in past Mongols used to say one is rich when he has no debt to pay. Now it is more suitable to say you are rich when you have debts to pay. So called the richest people of Mongolia, today, are all in debts, Jargalsaikhan to Marubeni company, (1:15:23) that Myanganbayar to Itochi company if you enumerate further there are plenty of them. In the book of Marx you will find that that there are rich countries in debts. As it is mentioned in it there are blood stains on pages of the first concepts of capital, just like that there are many swindlers among them. The people’s bank had been bankrupted, in embezzling the capital of the Bank of reconstruction certain amount of the money in its accounts were appropriated, the fund of social security had been transferred to the state account to cover budget losses thus if you look on their dealings through the eyes of an economist none of them are honest and clean from the point view Buddhist religion of Mongols none of them after death will be admitted to the paradise. They will be sent to the hell. Ishdorj Well, now there is a huge sale of land, what is behind it. From the economic point of view what do you think about it. Tömörtogoo Throughout the history of Mongolia there was no land ownership as such. The history of land relations of Mongols is a very extensive research material. A book entitled “Problems of land relations of Mongolia” by academician Jagvaral gaui is kept in manuscript in the archives of the Institute of History. I think, probably, the time to publish that book has arrived. I have looked on this issue of land relations of Mongols from different angels and came to the conclusion that this is an extremely thorny issue and one has to admit that throughout the history land has always been the property of the state. It would seem that land was possessed and used but it has not been private property. In the Secret History it is mentioned that land was given to Sorhan shar in Selenge, Land was given to Horchi, Horchi was given land in Bargujin doehem, do not move without the instructions of Horchi, do not let any one to settle down at the sources of the three rivers. He (Chinggis) allotted lands to his parents mother, father and younger brothers. But the land was, apparently, not given as their property but given in their possession. Later during the Manchu period, though it appears that the land of the Koshuu (banner administration) was in possession of the Khoshuu noyan (local prince) when a khoshuu noyan sold a piece of his land to Chinese, Bogd Khaan summoned him in order to punish but did not come and escaped. A nephew of Too Van Dorjpalam sold some land to Chinese, such an incident had happed during the reign of Bodg Khaan. So Bogd Khaan summoned Dorjpalam Van but he evaded the summon and did not come, eventually he fled to Beijing, he stayed their until his death. So in Mongolian history land was not sold, it has not been owned privately, it was in possession and was used, the state was the owner of the land. If you look deeper into it you will find rather interesting thing. The Mongolian empire from the days of Chinggis khaan…stretched to the islands of Java and Sumatra the present Hayanan (1:18:43) and Vietnam, to the East including a island of present day Japan as well as Korea were included as parts of the territory of Mongolian empire during the period of Khubilai Khaan. Even so they nowhere owned land. Eventually they lost not only that immense territory but their own land. Mongolian territory was gnawed little by little for 4 thousands years from the south, from its under belly for 4 hundred years until the Mongols were left with their present territory. Now let’s not talk about Buriat on Russian territory, it was unquestionably part of Mongolia after all it was called Buriat Mongolia until the word Mongol was thrown away from its name. For instance, on the territory of Abakan, on the east of this present day Gorno Altai(1:19:38) further east of Tuva Vladimar Iliech (Lenin) was exiled in Minusensky borderland. This word Minusensk is, in fact, the word Minu Usov. These are the words Minii us (My water). The words my water is written in old Mongolian script as Minu usu, that Minu Usovsk is a small stream, so the name of that stream is Minii us, I think no can dare to challenge that. Now the territory of present Bratsk hydro-electric station, the place called Bratsk, people now days think it is the Russian word Brat or brother but the this word originally meant Buriat. After the territory of Evenki comes the Buriat territory and Russian Cossacks (cavalry units of Tsarist Russia) were confronted by cavalry soldiers who resisted them. Asked what land it was the Cossacks were told by the Evenkh people that it was Borootoi land. So they built the fort of Brat, the fortress later became the Bratsk settlement. This was the corruption of word Buriat. Russians came over the Ural mountains to this land in 1603. Then there is the Yakut which was also a part Mongolian territory. This word Yakut is the name given by Russians. Mongols and Buriats call them Yahad. Yahad in plural, just like nohod (word dog in plural) plural form of word Yah. Yah means in modern Mongolian chipmunk. It is the word “zah” (an edge, perimeter or border) That was the edge or end of Mongolian territory. So Yah means Jah even today in old Mongolian you write Jah as Yah. So Jakhchin is written as yahchin, Javhan as Yavhan in old Mongolian. The meaning of that word Yas or yarlag was zarlig (decree or order) yarlig, now our people call the labels of (хонодог аан итгээдийг?? May be wrong transcription) something as yarlig thus the original Mongolian word remained unchanged. So it was the edge Mongolian land. The Turkish Mongols living there was called Yakuts. Those Yahad now call themselves as zaha (Saha)people which means they are using the word zaha or the edge. It was a Mongolian land. Well, as for the present sale of land in my view one must first learn how possess land, then learn how to use the land in his possession after that should learn how to own the land. But privatization was carried out in a rush on the ground of greediness so the affairs of state had been turned into the affairs of wallet (i.e. for personal gains or enrichment) If they were told you may possess this land for a certain period, while possessing the land you cultivate it, drill well or dig and find gold so you should make use of the land in your possession. After you learn how to use the land you can get it as your private property if it was done in this way a different form land relations could have emerged. But, it was not done this way. At the time when Mongols have not yet learned to make use of the land or possess the land the issue of land of ownership has emerged. Land which has never been privatized in 800 years history of Mongolia, has suddenly become an object of land ownership relations. So this new relations were introduced at a time when Mongolian people on the whole have not yet learned how to make good use of land, how to possess it, this relations of land ownership was introduced. Due to that I believe that only a few people are abusing this situation for their own benefit. In the Constitution it is written that only Mongolian citizen has the right to own land but in the law on land it says that land will be given as private property to the household because of this provision non-Mongols received the right to own land. It is possible that there are non-Mongol man or women among the members of a household. Mongols may marry Koreans, British citizens, this is a household, therefore, according to the land law they have the right to own land as private property. However, according to the Constitution only a citizen of Mongolia has the right to own. In this way the law was drafted intentionally in wrong manner giving the right to own the land to the citizens of foreign countries. This law should be promptly amended. However, I believe that, first, there should be possession of land before the ownership, after possession it should be used, the user should pay tax from the benefit he received from its use to the society and the country, there should be some benefit from it only after that land can be given as property. However, I think this was intentionally distorted. Ishdorj I would like to seek clarification from on one issue. Tömörtogoo mm…hm Ishdorj Now, smog and smoke have become an increasing problem in Ulaanbaatar. Tömörtogoo Yes Ishdorj Aan, there were several very nice gardens. We all used to work there on voluntary basis through subbotniks Tömörtogoo mm… hm Ishdorj There is the Botanical garden, Tömörtogoo Yes (1:24:59)…… Ishdorj Garden of the Institute of Traditional medicine… [but Mongolian says: Ардын энэ хүрээлэнгийн цэцэрлэг байна… ] Tömörtogoo Yes Ishdorj ………. Tömörtogoo Yes Ishdorj Well, these people everyday speak of building green structures but they at the same time have destroyed them and constructed a few undersized houses on their sites. This is really a meaningless work. Tömörtogoo This is the greed for land. This is a policy to take advantage of the situation for personal gains by deliberate distortion of the policy of city development(construction). At some time in future their wrongdoings and the abuse of power will be exposed and they will be thrown into hell. In past all those taboos and prohibitions were perceived by Mongols as sins and committing those sins would result your falling into the hell, this was the only regulation. All prohibitions were regarded as sins so don’t take fire outside, don’t dig or excavate soil, don’t pull grasses out because such deeds are sins. But at present they say that those sins are buried in the burrow and taking advantage of their position to cheat and swindle their own country from inside these new capitalists will surely fall into the hell. Ishdorj Well, besides this there is one thing I would like to ask from you. Would you please tell me about your childhood years. You began your recollection with some grievance. I understand that in your childhood you must have been through many things and had interesting childhood. Tömörtogoo I am one of the 4 children in my family, the third child. However, four boys, who were born before me, but did not survive. Two daughters stayed alive. So when I was still in the womb my mother they diagnosed by her pulse and said the newborn would be a boy. Then when the time of birth approached, they say that it was the period when people move from their autumn camp to the winter camp site my family moved in autumn and put up its ger as the neighbour of one man called Tumurchudhur (Iron hobbles). Tumurchudur guai had intended to move to their winter camp and he was actually on a temporary stop over but when a new family just put up their ger as their neoughbour, he could not leave the neighbour right way and move so he had to remain. But it was prearranged in that way by my parents so that when I was born Tumurchudur guai was to be the midwife. In other words to hobble the child by that Iron hobbles. Because the previous four boys were taken away by the Yama (king of the hell or death) so in order to drive off the evil that takes a boy it was necessary to hobble the child with iron hobbles in the first place. So a man by the name of Tumurchudur(Iron hobbles) helped my mother during her birth as midwife. Secondly, giving me the name of Tumurtogoo was of special significance. When the child was delivered he was placed under a Tumurtogoo (Iron kettle), it was a magical cure or formula. That iron kettle was bought for a sheep from a man called Dogolon (lame) Dorj who used to drive livestock and caravans to Bejing. That iron kettle was a small one about the same size of the deep saucepan now used by the Chinese dining rooms but it had handles not on side but on both sides, it was an iron kettle used during travels. So when the child emerged that kettle was placed over him without even cutting his umbilical cord then a few dry grasses were placed on the kettle and lighted. That magical cure was performed to show that a living person can not stay under iron and fire, and that there was nothing. After that magical cure the boy was hobbled by iron hobbles in other words he was put in cradle by the man whose name was Iron hobbles. here was the third magical formula. A new born who don’t live long was put into a cradle made from the skin of black sheep brought from a far. So a black sheep was bought from man who was driving sheep flock to the city. When time of the birth of the child came nearer that black sheep was slaughtered and its wet skin was lying on ground near walls of the ger. The intestines of that slaughtered sheep was boiling on the stove. They say that my mother usually gave birth very easily. Then she said I am feeling not too well and sat back and the child was born and cried out. So the pot on the fire was removed and someone rushed to call Tumurchudur but he hit the pot and the ger was full of vapour of boiling meat soup and a big piece of blood sausage of large intestine was rolling on ground. Such a funny and queer incident had happened they say. This is the third interesting item. The fourth is they had to put the baby in that wet skin cradle, because (according to the magic cure) the baby must be put in a cradle made from the skin of a black sheep. So they took that wet skin and somehow wrapped around the baby. After a while when they looked on the baby, they saw that white foams were coming out of the mouth of the new born. The baby almost froze, so they decided it was impossible to put the baby in that skin and took out processed lamb skins and warmed them over the fire, in those days there was no stove but only iron supports for kindling fire, they warmed the skins on the open fire and cradled the baby in them they say. (1:30:01) One Mahir (Bent) Dorj was living not very far from our family he was a slightly stooped man, he processed skin and the sheep skin was given to him for processing. And it is said that he processed the skin in just a day. Then when a boy was born a rumour was spread that a girl was born. Even my grandmother found out that I was a boy after I started walking. Aan, after I reached two years my father was reprimanded at a meeting of the bag (the lowest administrative unit in country side or county) they said that “Comrade Dashdorj was prevailed by morals of past and by registering a boy child as girl thus caused confusion the registry of the soum”. So until I was enrolled in school I wear robe with a lapel on wrong side, I had to use my left hand to put something into breast of my robe, I had long braid of yellowish hair which was not cut since my hair was for the first time cut, and with rings on my ears, even now I can wear ear rings. After three days of my birth on the day of ceremonial bath a ring was hang on my ear. It was an earring with coral, I used to wear a set of knife and flint, had special sash, I also carried my own cup and eat from that cup only, I ate nothing in the home strangers, I was taught never to accept and eat anything offered by an outsider, such a special kid I was. Then giving birth with little labour is called in medical practice as the swift or momentous birth and it is considered that some children born in such way become mentally retarded or have disorder of nervous system such as epilepsy, it is the so called stremitelnyi rody. There happens various disorders such as scull has no opening on the crown or the crown is closed before the time etc. However, I had no such unusual disorders. But I have a huge scull. I wear a hat of size 63-64. Any hat left unsold in stores is my hat. Because of various factors including my linage that I have a couple of weird characters. I do not forget anything, until almost 30 years old I never ever forget anything. When someone said that he forgot something I almost wanted to ask what does it mean to forget and used to tease those who forgot something. I was never lost (in unfamiliar place), even in Moscow a student who spent 5 years there could ask me how to find someplace, such was the case. I have no fear, so I have no fear, I do not forget nor I am lost anywhere. I was not frightened so I argued with my superiors. Because I myself don’t forget anything I sometimes insult those who is weak in knowledge, it did happen. I was such strange person then around 30 years old I one side of my head started aching and since then I started to forget. Well, these are probably the peculiar things of my youth. I was around 12 years after the death of mother one night when I was sleeping my father woke me up, put my clothes and led me by my hands, it was a dark night I was sleepy and stumbling, we entered an enclosure of an ail (household) then through that to another one and visited an old man who was living a small ger. I was still sleepy the two took out scriptures and sutras and were talking to each other, now I think that I was shown to that man. I was still a small child, then drowsy therefore I don’t remember anything clearly. The only thing that is kept in my is that he saying he will start treating people after reaching 49 years. So later when I started treating patients I thought that what the old man told was now becoming a reality. That man probably saw from the scriptures my destiny. So he told that I would become a doctor after reaching 49 years. But I apparently did not follow his advice and started treating people before the age of 49 and was punished by the state for that. Then that 49 apparently coincides with emergence of the democratic government under which practicing of traditional medicine was permitted. There is one more clear memory of my childhood. In the rest I was raised in after war poverty just like any other orphans would have been. When the schools were over and the other children went home and my brother and myself remained behind together with 5 or 6 orphans. Then in 59 my two elder sisters came to (UB) to study in Financial college, they received student stipends and took two of us from the orphanage, and four of us became a family again with shelters over heads. This was what happened. If it was today I would have become a street child (a child living in underground canalization system). This would have happened. Ishdorj In those days where was the food for orphans provided from? Tömörtogoo The soum administration gave us an official letter. Ishdorj Right Tömörtogoo After receiving the letter the administration probably included that expense in its budget. In summer a cook was appointed who used to feed us rice porridge or millet with (borts-dried meat) jerky. One day a steamed rice or millet with butter was served, on the other porridge with jerky. In those days refrigerators were not available, we had to economise the little dried meat we had, slaughtering a animal for 2, 3 children was out of question because they would not be able to consume it and it would turn bad. So porridge with dried meat and millet with butter were the stable diet. Aan during the school year we received our food in public kitchen of the school. In the boarding house of the school there was a special room for the orphans. The school gave us all the clothes. School bought shirts and European costumes from small sewing shops. There were no uniforms, student uniforms of the school. That was so. Copy books and text books were provided by the school. It was like that Ishdorj Was it provided by the state? Tömörtogoo The state provided everything. Yes. Probably the school made provisions for so many orphans in its budget and received the fund. In those days there were no sponsors or charity organisations so the school took care of the orphans. Then in the year when I entered the 6th grade my two elder sisters went to the school in the city, there were no technical or vocational schools in the rural areas. So when my two sisters started to attend the technical school and began to receive student allowances we-the two brothers were sent to city orphanage. The soum and aimag schools gave me a letter I took the letter then a teacher accompanied us. His name was Tserendorj. That teacher brought us to the chairman of the education department of the Ulaanbaatar city a man by the name of Balchindorj. That Balchindorj sent us to a teacher called Dolgorjav of the Ulaanbaatar welfare school. That teacher Dolgorjav spoke to the Financial school, our two elder sisters were working at grain harvest. Our elder sisters were called back from the harvest and two of us were handed over to our elder sisters because it was considered that the two were now able to live on their own. So they were told to take care of the two children, that is how we came into the hands of out two elder sisters. Ishdorj Your two elder sisters were both in the technical school Tömörtogoo They were both in the same school. At that time, there were teacher training school (college), School for paramedics, financial school, those were the best schools children from country side could attend. Graduates of 7th, 8th grades were admitted. Apparently there was no system to take care of orphans until they graduate from 10 year school. That is why my sisters entered the technical school, of course they thought to have some salary or steady income. In those days students of technical schools received stipends. That was the reason. Ishdorj Are your sisters still alive and well? Tömörtogoo No, my elder sisters had departed. My youngest brother is an old man on pension. Ishdorj ok. Tömörtogoo So only two us me and my brother are here, my two elder sisters died. My brother, an old man on pension has liver cancer and his days are counted. If the lord would not take him away today or tomorrow, he will be able last for another month. That is it. Ishdorj In those days was the live of orphans not bad and generally tolerable? Tömörtogoo Yes, it was. Even the other children could have envied us. We had the whole set of clothes, always new ones. A younger brother of this Dr. Shuher, Rinchendorj who was raised in our orphanage sold his new boots, bought candies and he used say wandering in narrow streets and eating candies for 8 tugrug is nice. He changed his new boots received from the school for old worn out boots, in addition received a few tugrug and by that money bought candies. We never sold our new boots and clothes. But there were orphans who sold their new clothes as soon as they received them. In those days we lived in such way that people could envy us. Of course we lacked the affection of our mothers and fathers, but we had food, text books, note books. Ishdorj Dwelling? Tömörtogoo We had dwelling to live. When the school year was over the children went awat. Then since we had nothing to do in order to make good use of free time we ere taught to play musical instruments, play chess and checkers. Today’s children will feel envious of them. I can not say anything bad about such government. But I can blame and ridicule the present government without any remorse. Ishdorj Will you tell us about your family, about your wife and children. Tömörtogoo My wife… is a native of Arkhangai aimag. She is a pharmacologist by profession. She is one first pharmacologists with high education who graduated the chair on pharmacology in our country. We were acquainted as students and married while still being students. My eldest child is now 43 years old. We have six children, four sons and two daughters. Only one has not yet married. Now there are 6 families, we have 4 daughter-in-laws, one son-in-law, 12 grand sons and daughters. Well, people talk a lot about alcoholism, now they say everybody is drinking so much, I don’t have this problem. I don’t drink and don’t put a cigarette in my youth I got drunk once or twice did try smoking once or twice. But I had not become addicted to them. Aan, my four sons don’t drink or smoke, we are the same. I heard that folks from the country side who had been at some festive occasions with us told that they were very strange people when if there was the arkhi (vodka) they did not drink at all. Even though there were some others who wanted to drink they did not dare to drink, they drink soft drink, ate chocolate, steam buuz (meat dumplings) and ate and continued to celebrate this was what they told to people in the countryside after returning. We open a bottle of vodka on tsagaan sar day as a custom. And never a single bottle was emptied during the tsagaan sar. So a half bottle of arkhi had usually remained, even someone who drinks come to my home afraid of me they don’t drink, we may be did not offer more than a goblet and it is left. Aan this year we opened that Chinggis arkhi. That black label Chinggis for export and found out that it can be swallowed, it is mellow. My daughter-in-laws and son-in-law tasted from a goblet and when many people take the taste it runs out. Because of that we had no arkhi on the last day of the tsagaan sar of this year. So we decided that if we buy Chinggis arkhi one can drink it thus we’ll not have, no left over arkhi from now on. My wife is a pharmacologist and she has been working in a laboratory of quality control of medicine for 25 years, her professional principle is not to give inferior in quality drugs to patients, she has been fully immersed in this thought. Then after she got her pension she opened a pharmacy and was wailing about the quality of drugs and for 14 years has been feeding us. So at times I tease her and say that she is a woman head of the family. Now, I am being fed by my wife (meaning she is the bread earner). I have not been working for almost 10 years. But I have not been without any income for I was working as an advisor at a publishing house. When the Danes constructed a newspaper printing house in our country it was established with peculiar status of management not present in our country. So I am the economic consultant, consequently a member of the governing council in charge of economic services as an advisor and have a monthly income of 100 thousand tugrug. That is my monthly salary in addition to that there is the pension of over 60 thousand tugrug, this way I am an old man with a stable income of 160 tugrug. So I am being fed by my wife, and the all my children are being fed by their mother, even the grandchildren receive salaries from their grandma so I teasingly call her pharmacy as the grandma fund. Then to our delight we have good daughter-in-laws. There are four daughter-in-laws. Most of those four daughter-in-laws are connected with medical profession, most of them wear doctor’s gowns. One daughter-in-law, who is not medicine woman, is a computer instructor and works in a science college. Of the 6 families only two are engaged in non-medical work for living. The rest are all in medicine and medical profession. When we have new son-in-law he is of medical profession, when new daughter-in-law comes she also from medicine. And probably it has something to do with predestine of our family, however if it is explained by modern understanding it is the environment they live in, they live among the people with doctor’s gown. My ancestors were called people of the otochynhon (of traditional doctors) therefore my family name is Otoch. That is why we are apparently destined to cure people. Even those who are in technical profession become connected with medicine. Now my nephews argue that they will study medicine and probably they enrol in that school. Of course, it would have been better if not all of them were engaged in one professional field, if we go bankrupt at least half of them will be doing something else but they all going for medicine. A Russian researcher of Mongolia Graivoronsky when we were sitting together told me you are a lucky man. I asked why he said your wife is a woman of a few words…I said she talks very little, she is almost mute. Then he said we-men are suffering very much from the unrelenting verbal assault of women. Your wife does not speak too much it means that you are a man of rare luck. She was born so silent, why I don’t know. (1:47:53) As for me I am an awful chatterer. So after someone always chattered beside her for 50 years to the end of her life she started to talk a little. Otherwise when she was 20, 30 she spoke so few words and was rather tiring. She is the only child. Her mother died only at 63. She had only this single daughter no other children. May be because she had only one daughter she looked at me as a god. She would bring tea to me and was bowing before me. I lost my mother while very young and came to understand what is the affection of a mother by watching my mother-in-law. (1:48:40) I was not aware that a mother is such kind of person and I don’t remember offering a cup of tea to my mother until her death. So when my mother-in-law bowed before me and showed all the signs of respect I became aware what a mother should do for her children. Now when I see how my wife kowtows before her grandchildren, I feel like teasing her and at the same time pity her. A man is truly rich when he has his grandma and the mother besides him. Bavuugiin Lhagvasuren wrote a poem saying “I was rich when my mother was besides me.” Looking at my grandchildren I think that they are truly rich because they have their mothers and the grandma. I don’t know about the grandmas in other countries but in my opinion grandmas in Mongolia are the beings born to suffer a lot, they really crawl before their grandchildren. I brought up my children without displaying too much affection or tenderness. I was a strict father, specially for the eldest child. I had a long period of illness at the juncture of 30 and 40 years of age. It reached such an extent that people were talking about my near to death, my death etc. I am actually half dead. My one hand if look at it is slender than the other, one leg trembles. This hand is much weaker that the other, my hair on one side of the head looks whiter than the other side which is more black in colour. The eye of this side is blind, with this one I can see. My eldest son when told that his father was very ill studied more hard and getting stronger in his lessons the youngest one was getting weaker and weaker in her studies. It really happened, she was getting weaker. As for the first three children I had to tell them at 2, 3 o’clock in the morning to go th