EN060501B Human body Interview 1 with Interviewee 2 on the human body. Includes information on the hygiene campaigns and related issues of the mid-twentieth century Dorlig Byambajav The Oral History of Twentieth Century Mongolia 2006-05-30 en XML Male Bayad 1951 Uvs, Tes sum 060501 Byambajav Why did you leave the school only after the seventh grade? Dorlig By the end of the seventh grade, my attainments at school were very good. I could say that in general I was better than my peers. Especially in mathematics, I was very good. Then, when I completed the seventh grade, they used to consider seven classes as a incomplete secondary education, incomplete secondary education, and they started assigning (nominations). Then, the first …, kids with the best attainements were usually transferred to ten-year secondary schools, and the rest of others were given nominations to vocational schools. I was transferred to ten-year [school]. So I returned home with in intention of studying further in ten-year [school] … I graduated the seventh grade in Ulaangom. In the spring of 1966. So when I came home, I hitch hiked a car in the direction, with little stuff of gifts for people brought from the aimag packed on my back, so I walked a little distance, walked around a kilometer, and came in home I was met by my mother. When she asked “What’s up, sonny” I replied “I am transferred to ten-year”. She said “Now, may it be,” these were the words she met me with. As for me, I was very much interested in studying further. At the same time could not go against the will of my father and mother. Then, also as an elder kid in a family, my father and mother wanted me to be with them, as all in all families in the countryside of course wanted to see their kids married, growing families and living next to them, that is how they liked things to be. They said to me that I need to go to countryside to which I replied couple of times that I want to go to school, but then I did not go against their will, so I left for countryside. I spent a year in countryside, I had not even reach the legal adulthood when my mother and father … had chosen me, a little kid, a wife, upon mutual agreement; the two of us had almost not seen in general each other when we made a household. Since then, in 2006 it is exactly 39 years. This is the reason I left school. My mother’s name was Ochirym Magsar. (0-03-28) My father, Myatavyn Tsedev, is still alive. He is 85 years old. And my wife’s mother’s name was Shinengiin Bat. They wanted to marry their elder children, apparently were sort of in rush at that time. (laughs) A year after that … at the end of 1968, our first child, a girl was born. The youngest of our kids was born in 1987. Ten kids in total. All of ten kids now reached adulthood. Each of them have separate independent lives. This is the situation. When I was a kid, in countryside, the most luxurous commodity was a good horse. Good horse. The bad horses would shepherd the sheep, the household routine errands are done by a poor of the horses, household errands. A good horse, as a rule, is not taken for any work. That was a time when good horses were used at times of holidays and naadam, or in winter for Tsagaan Sar after a certain period of савхруулж, that is how we used them. At that time when I was little, there was nothing of machinery. Why otherwise I would be for the whole summer dreaming and looking the trek of a car. The situations of people were kind of interesting then. When I was a kid. In terms of clothing, especially elders used to wear the ancient, so called girl dress, I mean women. Men, they had saches on their deels, had that sniff bottle sack, “tungentser” our folks call it, hanging from it. Also hanging from the sache would be the sheath with a flint, that’s how they were. Then they never leave without the sheath and flint. And when you enter a ger, like to visit an ail (family) you take the knife out and keep on the level of your boots, that’s how. Some people used to wear that thing, braids. All in all, they didn’t shave off all the hair like this but men would shave off half of it and on the top they let it grow long and braid it and let it fall down. This is what is called braid. Only one braid. In old times. Men that is. (0-07-25) However, the young people, as far as I knew as a child, the young people used to wear that short cut hair, mostly. That short cut would be let to grow long. But the part on the back of the neck would be cut. Only on the upper part the hair would be long, that’s what their hair was like. I, a kid, was no big deal. I myself used to wear sanma. I remember very well that I had that sanma. And when I went to school for the first time they cut my sanma off. But before then, on the санма, on both sides they say there were two shiimees. Do you know what shiimee is? Byambajav I do. Dorlig Well. Something like that. After th… That issue of hair had been remaining like that from then on for quite long period of time when something our people called pintuu came about. You take half of it from the front, take straight to the back, to do that thing. That hair [style] was predominant for quite a long time. You know what it is now. Then.. Byambajav A simple cut. Dorlig Simple cut. People over fifty, when I was little kid, mostly had a long beard right below their chin. At least wanted to. There were some whose beards grew nicely. But there were some who had scarce, thin, few fibres. Then, people of fifties in countryside mostly used to smoke, at least sometimes. At those times, there was nothing else except pipes, in terms of smoking. Horse riding was then, and around sixty the so called motocycles appeared. There was no motocycle in our Tes soum. I recall very, very well. I probably was eight. In 59, I think. One of my uncles, Norovyn Seezlei was his name then. This uncle is some relative to us. He rode in when I was herding sheep. All of sudden two people on daaga, two year old horses, went in front of me racing. [I thought] how fast a daaga they were. (0-10-34) Then, those two people on daaga turned out to be riding motocycles, that is how for the first time we in our Tes soum have seen it when we because of not knowing …. took for people racing daaga… at that time. After that in the next generation, motocycles became a luxury transportation for those who were well off in those time standards. All right, at those times when motocycles were just coming for the first time to us, the Russia produced UAZ-469 cars were rid only by soum, a head of soum-cooperative or administrative directors rather than otherwise. For a soum, there was one in a cooperative, and one or two trucks. And there were two or three tractors for a purpose of transporting milk and butter. But then motocycles were quite difficult to find. Nothing like one could find a motocycle. Always only few pieces coming. Once they come, there would be a long line for it. Besides long lines, they were only bought with big dargas (bosses). So that is how it remained until seventy seven or eight when most of people acquired motocycles. But then only those more or less better off acquired motocycles. There were no people with a car in ownership, until 90s there were no person with a car at all. Because there were no cedan cars coming (meaning imported for sell). Deficit. When they come, only one or two people would buy. There were no people who could affort it. There was no law permitting sell of tractors and trucks in private ownership. Because means of production were considered not a private property. In other words, tractors and trucks were considered to be means of production. [They] were considered to be meant for production of some sort of surplus value. That is why it was prohibited to sell them to private people. So, because of this and other reasons, people owning a car were rarity until 90s. And after 90s [the situation] became free, and now any one who can afford are buying and riding cars, nowadays. (0-14-16) But then, even with all these things during the whole period, interest in horses did not decrease. Right now, although most of the living errands are taken care of by mostly motocycles, some errands like herding the sheep is still done with poor horses, but then horses, for instance, racing or joroo horses, sort of luxury goods, are still remaining expensive, even tend to increasing in prices recently. This might have something to do with the tradition of Mongolian people to worship horses. As for horses, especially in our area, quality of horses is not like it used to be in old times. In 1957 there was the first in Mongolia Spartakiada taking place in Lun soum. Then I was a very little kid, did not even start a school. My father used to have a brown horse then. It was one of the first four or five horses in our soum. That is how fast that horse was. Then, in 1957, I think it was in 1957. A spartakiada of eastern soums took place in East, or Western Turuun soum. In all kinds of sports. All …, all including athletics… all kinds of contests, then horses…, race…, horse race also. There were only four horses participating from our soum. Four horses from each soum, that is. They had 45 km racing then when they went to Baruun Turuun soum. So, on that 45 kilometers distance race, 9 horses died on that racing trek. Byambajav wow. Dorlig 9 horses went bad to die. At that race my father’s brown horse won. Now then, there is no such a horse in our soum that would race 45 kilometers without slowing down. I assure you. From this you can see that .., after that race in sixty something, that horse was struch by a desease and died. That winter, there was my father’s another horse, a light-brown with black mane and tale. It cantered. That horse could canter at least 30 kilometers, without slowing below 40 miles, that’s what a horse it was. (0-17-44) Now there is no such a horse that could canter like that, without reducing its capacities, if there is then it would not make that far. So, I think that the issue of decrease in the quality of horses is related to the lessening interest in horses because of which an attention to the improvement of the breed Byambajav How the religion and beliefs are developing in Tes soum after the start of democracy? Dorlig In order to tell about this, it will be necessary, like before, to tell what religion was like then when I was a kid, and what happened since then and how it is now, right? Byambajav Yes, right. Dorlig When I was a kid, religion was very secret; most people, all people were taken by the that thing, the teaching by Lenin that said that religion is a drug that poisons intelligence. If you ask why, at that time all of the strong religious lamas were executed. Then religious beliefs were strait prohibited, it was difficult. My father and mother did it very secretly, always on watch whether some one was coming, and worried if a dog barked, and when it barked they would force me out to look what ever was coming, so they would burn a scent on the altar without me. They could not bow to pray. What would happen if someone comes in when they pray. They were afraid of how they would explain what they were doing. That is how it was. It seems in 1969. I don’t recall very well. Actually it is very clear. At that time there was a rumor going around that planet Ikar was going to collide with the Earth. It might be 69 or 70. At that time some of our people thought of woshiping the ovoo at Tsagaan Ereg. Byambajav I see. Dorlig So they decided to secretly woship the ovoo at Tsagaan Ereg but quite a few people gathered there. At that woship of the ovoo. (0-21-14) Then there came also a couple of our lamas who had their rights seized and who had these rights reinstated later. Lamas were there. They were elder people who used to be lamas but then became secular and married. So they woshipped the ovoo. After that these people were arrested and interrogated for a whole year. Byambajav What were their names? Of the lamas? Dorlig The what’s his face was there. Lodon, Budee and Lhaatseren, these were the ones who went there. These folks were arrested and then later were interrogated through the whole winter. There was an uncle by my mother there. Lhamsuren is his name. His own father was one with a good religious knowledge. Also his uncles by his father were also people with knowledges. So, he learned those things from these people, secretly, by himself he learned quite a lot. He was apparently one who helped others from his religious point, helped a lot to those who were poor and sick. He was persecuted a lot. That Lhamsuren passed away, before 90, or 80, no 90, but he and Budee, the two of them were scolded by the aimag party committee, their case was discussed at the politbureau of the party committee and were given into a custody of Erdenee, a soum party committee chair and Dalai, the soum administration chair, at that aimag party committee bureau meeting. To force them to stop beguiling others. The situation was like that until 90s and since 90s democracy, the democratic revolution took place to free everything. Now there is nothing to say, everything is very nice and free. Now it is developing. But if you think, that the knowledge of the basic religious behavior, I think, is not quite good. Other than that… the religion is spreading vast in rural countryside Byambajav Is there anything that you memorized at that worship of the ovoo at Tsagaan Ereg? Dorlig Again, I was a little kid but I saw. It’s a person of around twenty. I came there. OK, at first at that worship of the Tsagaan Ovoo they chanted for quite a while. (0-24-55) Everyone brought diary products, in other words cheese, soft cheese from home and came with vodka. So, the three lamas were chanting, burning incense, were sending people to walk around the ovoo, the burning incense was taken around the ovoo that is, meanwhile all of us collected the diary products at one place, took some of these products ourselves to be put on the ovoo, you do that by throwing on the top of it and we, too, walked around the ovoo and prayed. At that time. At that time some of elder people came to the ovoo and worshipped while some of the kids were laughing at them, I seem to recall. So, the diary products were put on the ovoo, people worshipped it, and the lamas finished the chanting, after that the remaining diary products were distributed among the people who ate all of them. As for the vodka, it was given to elders. Meanwhile there was a horse race. When the horse race started, that time there were around ten horses racing. Norsloi’s dark brown horse won, as I recall. And then, after that, they worshipped the Lus, the god of water. For worshipping the Lus, some of the lamas went to the bank of the lake and chanted according to the books and returned, while we were still on the ovoo. And as we all completed all the customs, after that when we were to go back, all on horses, everyone came riding, the lamas went ahead and the procession made three rounds around the ovoo. While making those rounds, people, all our people showted “Saijalbuu.” After showting “Saijalbuu” a few times, we really made a race towards each one’s home. Who knows what that “saijalbuu” means. So, that was the ceremonies at the ovoo worship then. Byambajav There used to mostly men come. They say, dogs are not allowed …? Dorlig Oh, yeah … At those times strict rules were there in our lands. You can not bring your dog. Women also were not allowed. That’s how, according to those rules. (0-27-47) Byambajav What’s behind that? Dorlig That I don’t know. Dog … Byambajav What about some kind of a result of the ovoo worship that you could say after the ovoo worship, something like rain falling, or some other sort …? Dorlig Rain, there was no rain that we noticed. Remember, they were talking about Ikar colliding with the Earth. That didn’t happen. Who knows whether that prevented it. (laughs) Of course, there were rains. However, I don’t recall what exactly happened after the ovoo worship. Byambajav Exactly this … Dorlig In three, four days after that … those people were taken for interrogations. Byambajav Are there any sort of oral histories that people tell that are related to the ovoo worship? Like memoirs? Dorlig There are some sort of things about actually horses. Byambajav - Related to the power of lamas, related to their magic powers? Dorlig Related to the magic power of lamas … they say there was a lama of our anscestors. I don’t know him. Forget about me, even my father had’t known him, only heard of him. He was called Aaj. A lama who was my dad’s grandfathers brother. Everyone called him Aaj. He lived till his 86. The Ulaan Sahius (Red Savior?), that person worshipped is still worshipped by people in my family line even now. It is a lord of gods that was kept secret, preserved and worshipped at the times of horrendous persecution, of strict restrictions of the socialist time. The first owner of it was him. That person ehr… never used to say any thing to others. But he would come to families and people at times of need to perform religious chanting. Actually there were numerous stories when he would take measures (meaning doing various spells) and heal or of that sort when people asked, or when scolded. At the very end, this person used to have two horses. (0-30-43) Only two horses, and when his horse was left tied to a long leash, thieves have taken it. Then that person never, erh … took it seriously. Didn’t even consider. Brought the other horse, was riding on it, and again one night when the horse was also left on a long leash, again, the horse wasn’t there when he woke up in the morning. A thieve has taken the horse. Then, their family as usual had an open fire in the ger. When he came in after going out for taking care of bodily needs, the siblings and relatives started challenging him saying “What kind of a person are you? Why don’t you take some kind of an action here? The only horse is not there to ride, what we gonna do?” Then that person took a handful of ash from the edge of the fire place as they had open fire, and thrown it to the altar saying “one can’t keep a single horse” and lay down facing from them. After he had lain facing the wall, in about three hours, two people, their faces and everything all in blue ash, [came] leading the horse on a leash and couldn’t even get off their horses. That’s how they came. Then that person, went to meet them, helped them to get off the horse blowing and etc, brought to the ger, fed with meals and tea, gave quite a lot of gifts, and let [them] go saying that [they] should not steal horse any more. There is another thing that is related to this person. There was a situation that children and relatives of one family, everyone in Aaj’s, that is in family of a sister of grandfather of my father, that is nephew-in-law to Aaj, kept on dying just of nothing. They kept on doing things about it number of times but in vain. At the end when nothing help, he himself decided to do something, so he went with two other monks to a sand mount that is in the south of the Tes river and on the north of a place called Gesen. Sevkuul is the name. He had a big hole dug there and a ger built right in front of the hole and spent three days in chanting, they say. So he had a hole dug on the Sevkuul, would stand himself on it, and kept on smoking facing from others. He didn’t used to smoke, he shouldn’t. Because he was a monk. But nevertheless he sat there smoking. In a while, in a while he went blue, went bad, why, he was over eighty, and people were wondering what was happening to him, and were afraid that he was going bad (0-34-32), but all of sudden a wolf came running from the West, stood at the edge of the hole when people hit it to death. So, they killed the wolf by hitting, put it into the hole and buried. That’s what they did. Then, after that they say that kids of the nephew in law stopped even getting sick. Byambajav How did that person explain what he did? Dorlig It turns our that no one asked him how he would explain what he did. Nothing else except it was passed on to me verbally that a miraculous thing happened then. That person called Aaj, as I said before that our people descend in general from that person called Alia, among the descending generations, I don’t know the generations of quite a few people. Even my father doesn’t know. I don’t know in what generation, the was someone called Biiv, they say. That Biiv’s son is Bazar, that Aaj, … there is also another person who married Buldaga. So, it’s Buldaga’s children with whom the things went wrong and Aaj had rectified the situation as I just told you. Then, that’s were the people then. Then, my grandfather is the only son of Bazar. Then there were one, two women, that is there were three of them. One of the women is a mother of, what’s his face, Buraldai’s old woman. [She] married some one called Green Dagva, they say. Byambajav So, Aaj was there then when the father of the grandfather was, was born? Dorlig His brother (uncle) they say. Byambajav Uncle on father’s side? Dorlig No. A born brother. As I said, that thing, in other words. He’s Bazar’s brother. In general. Yeah… Bazar’s brother is Aaj. And then born of Bazar is my grandfather , Myatav by name. And Myatav’s child is my father. And that person, Myatav by name, is the only son in the family, and has two sisters, so there are three of them, and he himself married to someone from Shinen family. (0-37-57) To someone called Tuvshin who is now my grandmother. There were 9 children born of them. The elderst of the nine was someone called Yunren. He married to someone from the Eastern Govi and had 10 children. All the 10 children, now there are many many of them. The next was someone called Shadrav. Shadrav, ad for children, again has 9 children. Then is my brother (uncle rather) Gongor. Then come Purevjav, Javzmaa, Tseden-Ish, Surenkor, then Yanjmaa, Yanjmaa seems. Grandma … nine… then was a woman. That woman… Pagma by name. That person married to someone Lhamsuren and gave birth to 7 choldren. Now, the elderst was some woman called Tseren. Then was Badam, who depended science candidate degree on that thing. Then after that she passed away. After her was someone, Baldan by name. Has two children. Then comes my father. Has seven children. Then there was Yadamsuren. He had again 7 children. Then there used to be Tseren. Their’s are… again, Choijil, Sundui, Jevzen, Shagdar, Begzei, Norsloi, Majig, Lhamaa, and Shijee. There were 9 of them. 10 children rather. There is someone, Dorj by name, still alive. Also has 8 children. There was someone, Tseelee by name. This Tseelee has Luiveen, Lamjav, Dalhaa, Dashdavaa, Udval, Nyam, what’s his face, … Dulmaa and Dolgor. Has 8 children. So these were the 9 brothers [and sisters]. So, my father was born in 1921. My mother was born in 1925. My mother’s mother and father were good monk folks. My mother is the youngest child of Ochir of that. Three younger brothers of that Ochir were great monks. One of them was Choijin. The other one was doctor monk. Once upon time there was someone with a title of Governor. All of the three people were arrested and executed. My mothers brothers and relatives, the eldest of them was Uudloh by name. The next one was Avirmed. After that was someone who married Kenzee. The next was Baljaa. There was also someone Tundel by name. There was also someone called Dagaa. The brothers used to have 7 children. There are 7 of us by our father, by our parents. My eldest sister married Pagvyn Arya from Tes soum of Uvs aimag. (0-43-35) As for their children, the eldest daughter is Tsermaa. The next is Javzan. That Javzan married someone Ochir by name. They have three children. The next is Odmaa, a woman, married to Lhagvaa. There is also a guy Jadambaa by name. Married to Lhaasuren from the Eastern Gobi. He has a wife, Janjaa. The next is Davaasuren. That Davaasuren took a girl from Jamsran, Tugsoo is her name. They have two children. Jadambaa has three children. Yes. The next is our family with 10 children. The eldest is a daughter, Nansalmaa. She married to Dalai’s Bataa. Has four children. The next child is Galindev. He married to Jav’s Tseyenpil. She has four children, five children. The next is Shirendev. Has one child, Anand by name. The next is Dulmaa. Her husband’s name is Tulgaa. Four children. The next is Byambajav. His wife is Chuluuntsetseg. One child. For now. The next is Ayush. Married to Damiran’s Orolgar. Two children. The next is Tsend-Ayush. Married to Lhagvaa’s Banzragch. The next is Lhaasuren. Married to a girl, Tseren’s Batdelger from Eastern Gobi. The next is Badmaa. Still studying in a school. The next is Nanjid. Is herding a livestock at home. So these are the ten children. A bit tired. Byambajav Thank you very much for the interview. For your time …