EN0600502 Trust Trust, Relatives/Friends, Interview 1 Jamsran Byambajav The Oral History of Twentieth Century Mongolia 2006-05-31 mn XML Male 1936 060502 Byambajav Well, I thank you very much for accepting my invitation, spared your time and giving me the interview. Then, there are two things I would like ask you before starting the interview. Jamsran OK Byambajav Would you grant us the right to use all the information, events contained in your interview say after 10 years, 20 years as extracts or reference materials on TV, radio and in publication for newspapers and journals? Jamsran Yes, I grant. Byambajav Thank you, there is one other thing if you wish you can keep your name in secret, if there is no need to keep in secret your name then you may use your name. What do you think about it. Jamsran I agree to it. Byambajav No secrecy… Jamsran No secrecy. Byambajav Well, thank you. Then will tell us about your childhood… Jamsran Hn... Byambajav ..about the pattern of life of that period… Jamsran Hn... Byambajav Would you tell us about your views, about something that had been embedded and remained for long time in your mind, can you tell at length about these, will you start your narrative? Jamsran Yes, I do. Well I was born in 1936. I was brought up by my mother and father. I am one of the 10 children, 5 boys and 5 daughters, 10 of us grew healthy, and I have now reached the age 73 years. I remember my childhood as growing up together with many others in our ger. My family was engaged in agriculture, mainly in land farming and cultivation. This was my life. Then the socialism was built, but during the socialist period we had no opportunity or conditions to attend school, we remained in the dark and ignorance, as animal breeding nomads. So we lived tending a few private animals, and working on land cultivation, I had many younger brothers and sisters I was the eldest. There were 5 boys and 5 girls so 10 of us. (0-03-00) In a sense living was rather difficult, that is how I grew. During the socialist period I had to exert in hard work myself so that my younger siblings could go to school, get some education and at same time to feed them all. My father died when I was 17 since then I, being the eldest, had almost become their father and brought them up till their adulthood. For instance, I had to prepare 5gers for each of the 5 boys, and had to decide everything on my own, together with my mother I had taken part in every chores of our family. My mother reached the age 92 before she passed away. I am now 73 years old, between us 8 children were born, whom we raised and made them equal to men (meaning made them as good as other men) and as the merit of my self mobilization and hard labour both during this period of democracy as well as during socialism my children are now enjoying a happy life and doing rewarding jobs. Now reform and changes are being implemented, things are getting better, since now there is no such thing as the totalitarian regime, time has come for any one to pursue whatever private aspirations he/she has and devote one’s ability fully to this end, an old man I am happy and grateful for this. The opportunity to choose one’s own occupation regardless where you are or in which country you live, in which soum or bag (county) you are, has been offered during this age of reform and transformation. During socialism a totalitarian regime was in place, no one had the right to do what one wanted, you had to act on instructions from someone, every time you were ordered (0-05-20) to go there, to do that and an individual had no power or rights. I lived and worked in backwardness under totalitarian rule to achieve what I have now, my children have met this good time. My motherland has been reformed and transformed, now in this reformed environment any one can go there where he can employ to the fullest his ability and live in pursuit of one’s own aspirations, now our children have the prospect and opportunity to go to any country of their liking and study in schools they want. I have 8 children. My eldest daughter is an operator at the airport. The next daughter works in her private company called “Tsagaan esh”, her husband is the manager. Byambajav Call them by their names. Jamsran Aa there is Tsengel, there is Oyunchimeg, Oyunchimeg works at the airport, my second daughter is Tsengel, his husband Altandosh works in “Zagiin esh” company. The next daughter is a building technician, she is working as a technician. The next daughter Maakhuu is working in “Sideres company” as an engineer, she is doing there her work. The next boy Tserenchimed is working as the head of military recruitment division in Uvs aimag, the next to Tserenchimed, a son is working in “Mah Max” company as electrical engineer and technician. The next daughter Boroo, Bor, we call her Boroo is in private business. She has a mall private company. The next one, the youngest son is working in fitness centre of General Military School. He is a trainer. So I am happy that all my children have been taught to work and everyone got a job. Now as for our political situation is concerned its is somewhat instable, there are many parties, things are running on the basis of pluralism. The general outlook of the state is really good. If you can spare times and engage in some activities, then there are the conditions to achieve your goal. Well, my younger brothers and sisters gave birth to many nice children. 2 children of my brother Dash are in America, his 2 or 3 children are living in America. There is an elder sister of mine called Shirnen her children live in Britain and Japan. Her 3 children now live in Japan. My brother Gombojav’s 4 children live in Japan and Korea, 2 of them live in Japan. There are wrestlers among them. (0-09-38) From the children of my younger siblings both Bayanochir and Bataa had won the wrestling title of aimgiin arslan or Lion (Champion) of the Aimag. So we are the descendents of wrestlers in our ancestry, there are people who are descendents of ancestry of livestock breeders. There are persons who inherited our ancestors love for scientific research among my siblings, they are making their own modest contribution to our to country and the society, so I am very proud of these children of my delightful siblings and my own. There are many famous people among our relatives, a nephew of mine now this Odkhuu, Durzeen Odkhuu is a member of the great hural. There are many others working at high posts, if I were to remunerate them. Now if I recall of my childhood and how I worked. Now I worked for 5 years in Police (Militia) Department. Well, then for 17 years in Musical and Drama Theatre, 12 years as the manager of Palace of Sports of Khorshoolol (Cooperative Association) and after working for more than 30 years I retired on my old age pension, now I am 73 years old. During this period until I reached the age of 18-20 I remained with my mother and father, herded livestock and worked on grain field, then I was recruited in the military service. After demobilization I worked on the above positions, I married my wife Orshikh in 1950, 8 children were born between us, we got married our and have 8 children, got them job to do and now only two us remain in our ger, we receive the reward of the state our pensions and enjoy this good life. During this period I overcame various hardships and sufferings. I enjoyed good and prosperous life, I experienced poverty and misery, lived under totalitarian regime of socialism and I am enjoying now the delight of freedom which came with reform and change, I saw this freedom. After receiving my pension I went into small trade and worked hard over 10 years to improve my living. During the period of totalitarianism it was forbidden to engage in small trading or resale. That is why I after joining the party was expelled from its membership as a profiteer and then rejoined the party, this is the path as an old man I have traversed. The life of the nomads of that period (0-13-19) was such, in winter you have to take shelter in fences or houses, because over there the climate is extremely harsh, in sever cold winter the temperature would fall to minus 65 degrees in Celsius and soar as high as 50 degrees above zero during summer. The climate of Tes soum of Uvs aimag is so harsh, it is a soum which experiences such harsh cold in winter. The horses of our soum is swift and men are spirited and strong wrestlers, we are people of Bayad tribe. So in the past we were admired for our horses and wrestlers, this is about our soum. Well then, I am a bit out of words… Byambajav It is a OK, OK. So you were herding livestock till 18-20. Jamsran Yeah. Byambajav Tell us from the memories of that period, Jamsran At that time my uncle now a man called Suren was there. His family had many livestock, he was the first Director of the school. The first school was established in Tes soum in 1950 and he was working as the first Director. He had many livestock and I looked after his herds. So in the end at 14 I was considered as a man and as the eldest son herded livestock, worked on grain field, my father was one of the 10 brothers and sisters and life was not that sufficient, we had nothing more than some crop, there was no enterprise to work, we eat meat of our livestock, made grain flour and lived on them. At that that time fabrics such as daalimba(knitted cotton fabric) was not available so sheep skin was processed and tanned, we made robes from it. From goat skin boots were made. Now our life has improved so much that it is incomparable to that period. That daalimba, for example, would cost a sheep. Now a 6 meter cut of daalimba would cost an adult sheep. Byambajav In winter you could probably put on sheep skin robe and wear goat skin boots. Jamsran Yeah Byambajav What about in the summer? Jamsran During the summer you wear leather (suede) robe, for example, you remove the wool and make sheep skin robe to wear. Wrestlers, for example, peeled hair of cattle skin and made wrestling jackets from it. That was the way of living. I had seen a glimpse of that and worn such clothes. In general people were subsisting on what they can produce. There is a thing called larch bark, goat skins were put (boiled) in it and when it got a good colour, boots were made from that skin. Sheep wool is pressed in this (showed how to press by hands) manner and made felt, that felt was used to make inner linings of the boots for winter wear, robe was made from sheep skins slaughtered in the middle of winter. In such robe you can withstand the winter cold of 65 degrees below zero. In cold of 65 degrees tails of cattle are frozen and broke. A cow would go on to the pasture in morning, then returns with broken tail. There is no blood, it would stay frozen for quite some time. Then the frozen end remains there until it dries up and eventually fall off, it heals without blood coming. Such an amazing thing I saw. Then, we children eat mostly wild berries such as buck thorn berry, black currant. Dairy products were rare, bread, pastries and confectionaries were not available, we had no idea where they were sold nor ever seen them, I at least until 20. Well, then people burn trees that grow naturally, from tree they made their home, make the toono (smoke hole or window), uni and khana (poles fastened to walls and the smoke hole and the lattice walls), from wool they made felt covers this way people subsisted on whatever they can produce from things at hands. And during that olden days noyad and khaad (Princes and rulers) taxed the people, for example if you had 100 cattle took 2, if you had 1000 took 30 or 40, they took it directly on compulsory basis. Even it was your personal property the decree of noyan was the law. At a later days, a norm was set if you had 100 sheep you have to give so many skins, 10 goats so many skins (0-19-14) and that norm was the law. If you did not meet the allotted norm then without further ado or option they would encroach on your property. During the totalitarian regime it was such a difficult time. If you had 5 camels you should send 3 of them for caravan, if not they will be confiscated directly such was the condition, then at the time there were these urtoons (relay stations), no vehicles or other technical means. Urtoon service was provided by horses and camels. A distance of 30 km was considered as one urtoon, an urtoo, so from this Tes soum to aimag centre the distance was 6 urtoons. So at every station at 30 km me or some other person would be appointed. At a distance of 30 km from there another one will be appointed. So from our side we were responsible for 3 urtoons and 3 other persons would take the responsibility further up to Ulaangom which is the aimag centre. There was no such a thing as delivery of post by plane, delivery of post by vehicle. So the noyad (princes) used to convey things and letters through horse relay stations which were served solely by horses and camels. That was the situation. So in olden days it was truly uncivilized and backward. Sorochik shirts and European suits were unknown, how can there be such things? There was sheep skin robe, goat skin boots, for floor mats we used horse hides as floor mats. So generally floor mat was replaced by horse hide. When I married I covered the floor with new, hides of two newly slaughtered and very stiff horse hides and thought we erected a very fine family home, at that time.(laughed-0-21-36) It was like that. We did not know wooden beds etc. it was not introduced, in general, people were very uncivilized, for instance, there was Kun society or was it the primitive community? It was almost like that, almost like that. Then they could make such bed so the front side was ornamented in colours just like chest and few board laid on it and a few layer of felt mats and that now was the bed. A family had one such bed, two small ornamented chests at the time I was marrying, before that they were not available at all, paint or shirchin (paint in local dialect) was hard to get so a small squire boxes were made for the chest was put as they were without paint. Then eventually they would turn dark or brown in colour, because it was not painted. In olden days paint was called shir. They would say there is no shir (paint) to shir (to paint or colour) these. When you think of that things had changed remarkably. Then afterwards the agricultural cooperatives were established. When cooperatives were established that meant taking away all private herds on compulsory basis, if someone did not want to give his livestock, he would be sent to police, court and prison or to whatever detention place that was there. Then after his detention all his property was confiscated, in general, the most poor and destitute joined cooperative first of all. So the livestock they received was the confiscated animals. There was a chairman of the agricultural cooperative, then below him an accountant or statistician then comes the herders, so all those confiscated livestock were distributed among them for herding. If one had many animals then the livestock was left with according the register and told now you are a member of agricultural cooperative. If you had say 100 or 300 animals only 18 were left to him as his personal property and told that the rest are now the state property, you can keep in your possession only 18 heads of animals. If you had 500 animals only 21 were left. More than 400 were taken away. So this way the livestock was appropriated on a compulsory basis. Byambajav Was the appropriation compulsory? They say that in order to enrol on voluntary basis (in cooperatives) a lot of persuasion and propaganda work were carried out. Jamsran Propaganda work was conducted, but if there was some one who was determined not to join then it did not bring any result at all. They would insist I would like to keep some animals, I have 500, 600 livestock and I would not give them away they would say. (0-25-02) Then they were told you are not a member of the cooperative so you should not expect anything from the state and levied the tax on the highest possible level, this was done that way. One of my uncles said that he would not join the cooperative and stayed away from the cooperative for 4-5 years, then he was summoned to the aimag police department, from there to the capital police, to the city, his name was Jambal. So at last, after exhausting all means he had to join the cooperative. After 4, 5 years means that the cooperatives had already stood firmly on their feet. Then if some one had successfully raised the livestock he would become the front-line or the best herder of the state, hero of labour, champion cattle breeder of the state, champion of aimag. So for raising successfully the new born animals of his own livestock which had been taken away from him he was awarded the title of hero of labour or champion herder of the aimag, champion herder of the state or the two time champion herder, hero of labour, the titles of this kind were given to him. The cooperative movement was brought to a successful conclusion in 59, the cooperatives declined since 85, 88. Now with victory of democracy and reform as well as the transformation livestock were distributed back to the previous owners and people acquired private property. So this democracy has brought a lot of good things, did a very meritorious deed. Well, then our people are using this capital in wrong way, they are being led in wrong way and because of that a lot of disagreements are emerging, there are many wrongdoings. There are things that is right. I think now that under these circumstances there are also many things that are wrong. Byambajav You were herding livestock before going to the army, is it so? Jamsran Yes. Byambajav When you joined the army for a civilian who were tending livestock, there should have a drastic change your life, in your clothing. Jamsran Hn Byambajav There was a change of environment and what was your impression? (0-27-39) Jamsran Until my demobilisation from the army I served for 3, 4 years. I served for one more year. Then I went back and found out that the cooperative had confiscated quite a few livestock of mine and my wife with a child had almost no animals only 4, 5 were left to her. That was the situation. So I thought it was now impossible for me to live in the countryside and moved to the city, to the aimag centre and took a job in aimag militia. So, in a sense, I started my new life from there. If I stayed in the countryside I would be tending cattle, or take the livestock of the cooperative for raising and thus I should have been living, but this would not have solved the problem. Byambajav Was it difficult to migrate from rural areas to town? Jamsran Generally, it was not allowed. Byambajav Not allow migration… Jamsran Yes, it was not allowed, yes, it was a period when human rights were cruelly violated, it was such a time. Byambajav Then how did you manage to come? Jamsran What should I say, that was such a happening which really could be called as sneaking through the back door, I explained to soum chairman the whole situation, my life is so and so and almost by using the back door came to the aimag centre. In order to move to the city(capital) you must be coming on an assignment otherwise you can’t be transferred to the city, you can’t get passport or pass, so, for example, I came here in 85 to become a builder. Since then more than 20 years have passed. Byambajav When you came back after demobilization, what was the changes that had taken place in primary needs of people, in hygiene, in household utensil and articles, furniture and personal effects? Jamsran Not that much, nothing very much bright or glittering, but the articles of immediate need were available. People who, beforehand, used horse hides for floor mats now spread dorojki or strip carpets or some other mat and the well to do families had real carpets that was the situation . … Many were still privately engaged in agriculture, in land farming. Everything was done manually, digging canals and irrigating, for example ours was big family, we harvested over 100 sacks of grain, if the harvest was, say, 60 sacks it was not enough for our food. In order to thresh the harvest of grain we used several horses tied in row to trod over the grain on the around floor as that of the ger called kharam (threshing floor) so we spread grain on the floor made horses walk around over the grain, then tossed it against the winds to clean it from the husk, then the grain was piled on hides. Well, then I used to go with my father loading sacks of grain on camel back to places where they do not grow grain and change it for livestock to be slaughtered for winter provision, if there were pedigree animals they were kept separately for raising. We lived in such a manner for many years. Now, our land, in other words population of Tes soum of Uvs aimag were engaged in cultivation of grain until 56. Then after the establishment of cooperatives land farming was completely abandoned. There is, today, no such thing as grain cultivation in Tes. Flour was imported from Russia regularly as well from here flour of our (domestic) flour mills were brought, a flour mill was also built in our aimag so the demand for flour was fully met. We cultivated three different grains such as rye, barley and white grain, in our place we call wheat as the white grain, so there were three varieties of grain. Then we beat the rye in order to separate it from its husk and ears, grind it and boil, it is called in our place kouch, now here and there you sometimes see this kouch grain. During the winter we lived solely on this grain. When you are tired of meat, beat rye and prepare that grain for consumption. Flour was not available (0-33-22) that is why it was made, then you grind wheat on hand mill and sift the grounded grain through 2, 3 layers of thin porous bandage material and made dough for meat dumplings. During the lunar new year only very well off families will prepare such dumplings, the poor can’t afford it, during that time of hardship, bread, flour, pastries and sugar were not available, only so called rock candy a thick piece (that big showed his clinched hand) of refined sugar were available from time to time. Even your father would not know what it was. Your grand father was the person who was handling it. He was the sale’s agent for many years. In early days, for example, man had pigtails. Laymen had pigtails. Lamas had bald heads. The pigtail at back of head was braided in single thread and it was rather long sometimes reached the spine. Now, this men’s hair styling or growing men’s hair was not known, it was introduced at a later days. Now, those noyad and khans were all laymen of the state therefore they all had (pigtails), in that sense one can distinguish a lama by his shaven head. And that he was a layman of the state was also recognized by his head. Byambajav What did the children look like? Jamsran Aan? (Sorry) Byambajav What did the children look like? Jamsran Boys had shiimee (tuft of hair), 2 shiimees were left unshaven on the head(showed by hands). So a small sanma (lock of hair) was left. It is for boys. Girls’ hair were left to grow. Until it grows to such a length as to cover her spine and reach her shin as it is talked among the folk. This was it… Byambajav Any memories about your work in Militia? Jamsran Oh, yes, of course. I was a militiaman in Militia. As for the memory nothing special, police usually work with bad guys (0-36-09) thieves, robbers, elements alike them. For your interest I can tell you that every problem in our location emerged from Tes (laughed), so memories of forbidden things committed come from there. For example there was a man called Samdany Sanjaa he finished off old couples both the old woman and old man, he was in prison under guard about a year. And later he was sentenced to death by firing squad. Then, for example that very Choindonjav and Volodiya and some others burned to death a whole family of 4, 5 of Zuun govi together with livestock and later got death sentences. There are many things to remember. And speaking of memories of working in police what else I can tell you. Well, then I worked for several years in the cooperative. There was body called the Uvs inspectorate, so in a year about 90,000 heads of livestock were driven out into Russia. 90,000 heads of livestock were exported. I was the head of the inspectorate in charge of it. I did that. Well, I worked in sergii…in aimag theatre. I was in charge of nice stage costumes and saw all the performances. Then I was a singer of traditional drawling songs. After doing these job, later I came here and worked as the manager of hall of Sports palace of Khorshoolol from there I retired on pension… your grand father, the father of this Norsloi and myself had been a very good companions, good companions indeed… Byambajav When you were working in Music and Drama Theatre cultural events were organized at what level. Jamsran Well, that was normal, all the best actors from soums, every soums used to come. There were also professional actors, now it had a staff of about 70 people. In addition to it from 19 soums, from these soums the best and the selected actors used to come. So they staged drama plays, sang songs. We had dramas it means, drama means drama actors. We had good actors who could have starred in movies so they staged different plays. Aa, the singers were separate, musicians were separate, dancers were separate so it was organised in 5, 6 groups of separate sections. For example, there was the production section in charge of actors. There was music and musicians’ section. Then there were dancers’ section, section of singers. So there were sections of drama play, dancing and dancers, actors section. Dancers and actors are people of two different category. So there were in all 5,6 sections. It (the theatre) had a chairman, and an accountant, 2, 3 deputies of him, deputy in charge of economic matters, vice chairman so in all 2 ,3 deputies. There were many merited actors. If I count them they were Zagarjav, Tserev, Tsevgee and there was one called Bodon. So there were 4 meriited actors, then there was also a dancer Legjmaa, merited actress. So theatre had 5, 6 merited actors and actresses, I worked at such a place for 17 years, I did myself also sang traditional drawling songs. That was it, when I worked in theatre…now at Sports palace of khorsholol, ulsyn nachin (falcon-a title conferred on winner of 5 rounds at naadam celebrations) Baatarjav is from our Tes, I worked there, I was working there as the administrator of the Hall and the manager. So all the famous and titled used always to come on Sundays to wrestle beginning with Darkhan avagra (invincible titan title conferred on wrestlers who won the Naadam contest 4 or more times) Bayanmounkh, then Khadbaatar and Tseren avragas. Wrestling contests were held permanently on weekends, Sundays in Sports Palace ,then Sports palace of Khorshoolol. They used to go from one wrestling contest to the other, so they go around like this the last one was I suppose the sports hall of the electric power station, the present cultural palace of Khan Uul district. So in my capacity as manager of sports hall I was in charge of ticket sale, organising the participants and provide necessary things and hand out the prize of the contest and every other related matters. (0-42-24) So I retired from there on my old age pension, I think some 13 years have passed since then. Now I am 73 so since I retired at 60, am sitting in my home for 13 years. Byambajav Well, then what… during socialist period a big wave of repression had happened. Jamsran Yes. Byambajav Could tell about that, may be not yourself but some body else told you about, may be you heard some body’s memory about it, what was it like to live under the fear and anxiety of that period, when the repression was actually carried out, how horrible it was, do you have any recollections about it? Jamsran Oh, yes, I have. I, personally, was a victim of that repression. Byambajav Can you tell about it? Jamsran When I was working in militia, I was on duty at the bank, I used to be in a shift of guards of the bank. Then the chief accountant of the bank went to Ulaanbaatar and his deputy was in charge. I know very well that deputy, his name was Davaasambuu and he was from Avdarbayan soum of Touv aimag, his name was Davaasambuugiin Osor, since he was acting for the chief he kept all keys of the storage, so I don’t know who was on duty, whether it was me who was on duty or that Galavaa was on duty, or the one called Sainbuyan was on duty. Anyway, no matter what who was on duty 10,000 tugrug was stolen from there (the bank). 10,000 tugrug of that time was a terribly big money. So he (Osor) because of that did what, he was a very good friend of mine, he used to wear my clothes including the hat. So he took that 10,000 tugrug, took half the money as we found out later and the rest he put in a round box of cinema films buried it under the house. He put the money in that big round box buried it in the hollow under the building of the administration. Of course, we did not know it initially but later we came to know about it. Then after a while he had become the main suspect in all aspects and was arrested. When arrested he told that I stole that money together with Jamsran, he pointed the gun on me and gave it (stolen money) to me forcefully. So I had no choice but to take it and kept crying, then I was told that Prosecutor Majig was summoning me, so I went to him. Then he said to me now you should tell the truth. What truth I retorted. He said you stole money from the bank, your accomplice had already confessed. He said that the money was stolen by the police. This was what he told me. I said: no I did not do it. Then when I finished my duty was going home and I was called and they took me away stripped my clothes and put in the prison. Then they proceeded to interrogate me, so I told them that I would not cooperate or give any testimony to them and would not be interrogated by them. This was how such a terrible persecution was going on. There was one called Davaanamnan , Choiloon Namnan, he was the investigator of special cases of the militia. He was gong to school in Russia and received the order to investigate 2 important cases before going abroad to study. So in order to fulfil that command or there was a conspiracy who knows he subjected me to repression. So I refused to give testimony in aimag centre and was sent to the city (Ulaanbaatar) I was in prison for 9 months and 20 days, the other one came here and confessed and kept crying. The investigator would go to Darkhan on his business and would come back and interrogate me and continue to insist that your collaborator had already confessed (the crime). He (Osor) continued repeating that dangerous man (Jamsran) was not saying the truth and kept weeping. Then one Byambasuren was also instructed to reveal this case, find the key to this case and you can go for study. There was one investigator called Doloonjin, he would accuse me saying it was you who had stolen that and demanded to confess, it appeared that he had never really read or examined the files of the case. Then the other one (Byambasuren) after examining the case for 7 days summoned me and told me “Well, I examined your case, there is very little proof, I’ll bring that man and put him in jail, you should wait for while.” Then after 7 days he (Osor) admitted his guilt. He, who was my best friend told that among the militia staff Jamsran was the most gentle person. Therefore, I decided that (0-48-15) being a person from law enforcement he would take responsibility for 5000, for remaining 5000 I would take the responsibility, since he was an man from law enforcement he would be punished more severely, I would get a lesser sentence because of my ignorance this was what thought and slandered him was his confession. Of course I did not know that the after 7 days on the 8th day, after spending 9,.. 9 months and 16 days in prison I was summoned again. And I was told “Now you will be released, released under the responsibility of someone” I said I would never leave the prison under the responsibility of someone without hearing that I was clear of any guilt. Then he said “No, no. You will be cleared in any case, after all you were imprisoned unjustly, your losses would be redressed. That man will get his punishment, after the court proves that there is no ground to accuse you, you will be free but now you will be released under the responsibility of some one, after the problem will be settled, are there any of your relatives here.” I actually replied there was no one. But how did they find out I don’t know, there were my uncle old Suren, and also Belgee. So they came after me and took out of the prison. I could barely carry my robe, I had sore hips and could hardly move my knees, this was how I had been repressed. Then after more than 10 days or 20 days I was informed that the man confessed his guilt, you are cleared of any wrong doings, you should appeal to court with a claim for reimbursement of your losses, your losses will be compensated. So that man was sentenced for 9 years for taking the money, 3 years for slandering in all to 12 years, then his sentence for stealing the money was reduced by 2 years and received 10 year prison sentence. So I gave my petition to the court and left. Then I received the decision of the court stating I was exonerated and that sum of 9987 tugrug should be paid by Osor to the victim. So I did receive the payment for damage. That Davaasambuu, the step father of him was a rich person he reimbursed me for the losses. So I am a person who was repressed in this manner. Byambajav During that period did they beat you so that you confess the guilt or did they put you under duress and torture you? Jamsran I was under duress. I was under duress when I was here (meaning Ulaanbaatar). Over there since we were all acquaintances and knew each others, they would curse me but nothing more than that really. Here, they did not know me and one Gambar Damdin flogged me earnestly, calling me swindler, robber who was refusing to confess, I would say I had been wearing just like him the red epaulets why you are beating me, he would say you are a thief, robber I can do anything to you, it was very difficult, I had been through a very harsh treatment. Byambajav Have you heard anything about the repression of 1930’s ? Jamsran Aa, I heard. Repression of that period, to my mind, involved generally lamas and religious clerics, wasn’t it? For example if I said an inconvenient word to you, then it was informed further he was saying this or that, or if they were aware of it then it would become a repression. During that time now if a man shot a good lama then he was not guilty of the crime, it was a time when, generally, everybody had turned to be killers. If the state and government had valued someone highly, that man when if he shots a man or a good lama, it was supposed that any way he was to be killed. 17, 27, 37, 47 people were taken away and then eliminated just like that.(0-53-11) It was like that. That was really a very awful repression…Well, after this reform and transformation things are getting nice, people are enjoying freedom and are engaged in or doing whatever one wishes. Reform and transformation have been implemented by our people in a very nice way. There had been no bloodshed, no killings, every free people accepted and understood this transformation, on that basis the reform has taken place smoothly. I did not personally participate now in these demonstrations, watch them on TV regularly and make my own judgement. Then if I say what I am thinking it is now truly nice. We had no blood shed, no wars, no civil strife, it is because the event that took place was what people wanted, it satisfied them, that is why no problems emerged. So I personally support democracy, I am now old, I used to buy and sale and was called as a profiteer, if you compare the present with the past period, it is nice now, because we enjoy freedom. In general, to my mind, the folks who are building democracy are also doing somewhat wrong and conflicting things, they are doing a lot of right things. The right is far greater than the wrongs. What is always on my mind is that they are a bit in a rush and doing things too hastily. Since the transformation had taken place it is irreversible. Therefore, people should be given the time to think things over freely, they should have that time, even progress can not be achieved by itself very quickly, this would come gradually a little by little. Therefore, it is not something like taking a shovel full of dirt and turning it around, or something that could happen in an instant, but an understanding this could be done in a moment seems to prevail in the period of democracy. They are in a hurry. It is happening. This should be done gradually with international assistance and loans, since we are a nomadic people, a cattle breeding country, to do those things are very difficult. Now, for example if you are going to give the livestock of one person to the others, the distribution is made in a manner which is not proper. Every one is not getting one’s share. There are such drawbacks. The main thing is that this should be done slowly in such way that everyone from children to the adults could have their own shares from those livestock. For example, now the distribution of houses and premises is done in such manner that he who should have one is not getting it, it is done in a dark, in disorderly fashion, this I don’t like very much. Otherwise democracy is nice, things are getting better. For example me, since the establishment of democracy I went to the country side and engaged myself in commercial activities even though I was in retirement on my old age pension, so since we now have freedom I am not called a profiteer, thus I am doing my job and arranging my own life. In a sense, I appreciate this opportunity. I am one of those who wish democracy to deepen further and support it. Well, then demonstrations and gatherings are being organised. This is a right thing. However, there are certain shortcomings as for the management of economy is concerned and the distribution of the capital resources. Those who are unable to accumulate (wealth) are becoming victims, those who are after it had taking advantage of the situation. In particular, these democrats and those of revolutionary party, who are partial (on their side) and show favour to them had become quite wealthy. In lower rank people became rather poor. There is a growing gap between rich and poor. I, in general, think that some kind of adjustment has to be made, some measures should be implemented so that it will not grow further. Now, then the gol… the case (concerning the murder) of the golden martin Zorig is not solved (one of the leaders of democratic movement. Some call the first leaders as Altan kharaitsai or the golden swallows of the movement), I feel somewhat perplexed and painful about it. Why this case has not solved, what is the reason behind it, people talk various things about it, such as he was murdered by the democrats themselves or by the revolutionary party, but it has not been uncovered until today, I believe that this case should be solved. Well, now democracy is truly good, it is nice, the only thing is that there is a big gap between rich and poor. Now, as far the livestock breeders are concerned they are still ignorant, their understanding of democracy is very inadequate. It may be due to the fact that newspapers they receive present to them conflicting and at times wrong views of the situation of the two sides, and then because there are many parties and pluralism of opinion. So it is very difficult for them and they can not discern which is good and which is bad or wrong. Because of this problem they are, in a sense, confused. They are a lot, without distinction between old and young, who have little education and who look after their livestock in the countryside. This is an issue, related to democracy, which I can not grasp, and have no knowledge of, this is a problem which is still there, otherwise democracy is good, freedom is here, everybody is engaged in what one can do. Those who can devise, those who can plan or think something over can carry on one’s livelihood no matter what. I pity those who are not aware of this, such a person is sliding towards poverty. Specially, our not so many Mongols are bathing in alcoholic drinks, this is really regrettable. Now, there is a lot of discussion around gold and other natural resources. I can not quite understand the meaning of it. They are saying there is no need of foreign investors, we are selling our land and the resources, according to my own thinking, bringing investment and making explorations and proper use of the resources is the right thing to do. But people are saying our land has been sold, it is given in possession of outsiders, this got out of hands. I don’t understand this. Many such things are happening which are in many ways difficult for comprehension, for my brain power to understand. When a man who appreciate this issue hesitates and doubts how rural inhabitants who have no profound understanding of the issue would understand it. This issue should be carefully examined to find out what measures should be implemented in order to bring this into the right direction, those who are knowledgeable should assist in this effort. This is one of the issues that really hurts me. This democracy is really good, we are free, property came into the possession of the rightful owners. But as for the gold and other resources who should own them, who invest into it, how should the state secure its efficient exploitation, and we should find out who are going to make profit from its exploitation. Probably our state and government know about it, but as for us we can only make and keep our assessment in our mind. Speaking frankly there are many who are confused by the conflicting views, to them it seems that when one speaks he is right and then when other speaks he also would seem to be right. So many are confused. Generally speaking majority of the Mongolian labourers are in hesitation with this regard and a small part has made the judgement that it is the right thing to do. Because of it demonstrations and gatherings are organised and government resigns. Such things are happening often. Well, now let’s break, I am feeling not well… Byambajav Well, thank you. We thank you very much for sparing your time and giving us this interview, may I wish you long life, to see and enjoy all the best. Jamsran Well, may your wishes come true, thank you.