EN061102A Kazakhs Interview on the Kazakhs in Nailakh Mongolkhaan Byambajav The Oral History of Twentieth Century Mongolia 2006-11-10 en XML Male 1937 Kazakh uneducated Retired, miner Bayanolgy aimag, Tolbo sum Nalaikh, Tuulyn 4-12 None One of 11 children Father of Four 061102 Byambajav Well thank you very much for accepting my invitation granting me this interview. Mongolhaan Well thank you. Byambajav Now before we start the interview there are several points to clarify. Mongolhaan OK. Byambajav Firstly, if you wish you may conceal your name, ah if you wish … I can use it without keeping it secret. Mongolhaan Аh, no concealing. No, there is no need to conceal it. Byambajav Well thank you. Secondly, after 10 years or 20 years, may be even after 100 years all the information and facts contained in your interview we may use as reference materials in publication of scientific research book or use as reference materials in broadcasts on radio and Television, can you grant us the right to use the materials in this way? Mongolhaan I can, can. Byambajav Well thank you. Now let’s start our interview. What was it like the peculiar Kazakh national customs when you were young in those days, when you were a small child? Shall we start the interview from there? Mongolhaan Yes, yes. (0-01-21) Well generally the customs of Kazakh nationals are very distinct and fine. I was born in 1937, my father and mother had 11 children. I was born as the tenth child from among the eleven, now 9 of them are alive. In my childhood the customs and traditions of the Kazakhs were very nice. My family had 11 children and rather poor, we had almost no livestock. So I am a person who had been making living thanks to my own hard work. Ah I had been for long time, in particular, under the harsh pressure of the rich people of those days. For the very reason to get a two year old sheep in three months which was given for grazing their sheep flock. I had endured a lot of hardship. Ah when I finished the fourth grade in 1951 they wanted to send me to the school of assistant veterinarian, it was a time when you had to follow the words of your father and mother ??? (0-02-54) and I could not go that school. So I had been tending the livestock of the rich, the rich people (байшинк гэдэг чинь -unclear) among Kazakhs in those days behaved very arrogantly towards the poor. That was the situation. I don’t forget about it until today. For the very simple reason that after tending the their sheep flock for three months during the winter we received only one sheep as a payment. Aa in summer we did not starve that much. In that way I was helping my father and mother until they died. Aa since 1957 I worked in Nalaikh coal mine. There was the “assignment of the youth league” I came here by that youth league assignment. Ah there was now a man called Nazyr awarded with the order of “Suchbaatar” who fulfilled the quota of about 170 years or scooped by the shovel 120 tons of coal he came to our place and asked whether we would want to work on league assignments in Nalaikh coal mine. So I came on league assignment to work in Nalaikh coal mine and since then I am living here. I retired on my old age pension in 1990. Nalaikh is a place where not only Kazakhs but people of many other nationalities live. As far as it is concerned no one can say…. that Nalaikh is bad place to live. (0-04-19) I would say that it is a place where livelihood thrives. Well the history of Kazakhs here starts with the arrival of group of Kazakh workers headed by one Khundanbai in Nalaikh. Those miners had arrived here by the appeal of Khundanbai guai. Since then almost 70 percent of the miners of Nalaikh has been Kazakhs and in this mine mostly people from national minorities used to work. I tell to my children about it. At the beginning those who kept the mine operating were all national minorities. Well when we spoke of the Western aimags it means Khovd, Bayan-Olgii and Uvs. People from these three aimags were always there (in the mine). ??? (0-05-07) They worked permanently, I went too far with talking… please sonny put it here. (To the child who brought in tea) Shall I continue to talk…. Byambajav Of course. Continue please. Mongolhaan Well then when I was still young at the age of 8, as an 8 years boy I started working at the horse relay station in Tolbo soum of Byan-Olgii aimag, It was exactly in the centre of the Tolboo lake it was called relay station of livestock(May be not the livestock but “horse relay station” it may be a wrong transcription of “morin” not “malyn”). Representatives from aimag enforced people to run the relay station it was generally called (Вөөкөл-meaning not clear) (??? 0-06-05) So together with one old man called Sergalbai I was the attendant of that horse relay station. Of the officers from aimag we had no idea what they were doing or where they were going. They always urged us to hurry, to prepare the meal as soon as possible, used to prod us to give them good horses. I was a child and had no say in choosing the horse. I had no idea why the officers were in such hurry in those days. So from the lake Tolboo we brought those people to Tolbo soum. If there were no horses available in Tolbo soum we had to accompany them further this was what we did at that time. Then those officers from aimag were very aggressive I had been beaten many times on our way by them. (0-06-52) Since I was a child I had to give whatever horse that old Sergalbai caught for us and the officers rode those horses I had no say in choosing the horses. That was it. Well secondly, I accompanied many times camel caravans. We transported flour, tea, sugar and other commodities from Tsagaan nuur (Lake) storage (The base, referred here, was a in fact the main or central storage from where deliveries were made to different soums by caravans) of Bayan-Olgii aimag to the present Bulgan soum by camel caravans. And most of the time I walked on foot. I had no boots, there was a sort of slipper called torgoovch (торгоовч??), now it was a tohov shoe. (legs were wrapped in felt and it was covered or wrapped in wet skins in few days it dries up and become a semblance of shoe. Apparently it is a reference to that kind of shoes) That was the shoe we could afford and in a month after leaving Tsagaan nuur storage we came back. It took usually a month for us to deliver the goods to Bulgan soum of Bayn Olgii amag and come back. Well in 1953 the Ulaan tug (Red flag) cooperative of Bayan Ulgii aimag was established and we joined that cooperative. With joining the cooperative our livelihood improved significantly. The reason of te improvement was the following 25 poor families joined “The Red Flag” cooperative of the Tolbo soum of Bayan Ulgii aimag. There is one thing that still remains vivid in my memory when the Naadam celebration of the soum arrived the 25 poor families were invited to soum Naadam celebrations it was the soum Naadam by the present standard its was the aimag Naadam, the state Naadam celebration. All the family members of the 25 families including children and old people were issued invitations and called to the soum. That was a soum Naadam. We were all called to attend the Naadam and since we had no horses four of us rode a yak, it was strange lot. That time even if someone fell ill no one would give a horse even a young two old colt to ride. When we arrived members of the cooperative were invited into a separate ger. We entered the ger there were plates full of delicacies including sweets, pastries and sugar something which I had not seen in my whole life on this universe, they were saying members of the cooperative please come in. It was something unforeseen before. There was a meeting of the soum, the Naadam celebrations were opened. And all the poor members of the cooperative, all their children and the adults alike was given 100 tugrug. (0-09-43) The superiors in those days were very conscientious people…the reason they did that was to attract those remaining behind and to show them the advantage of the cooperative. Our family had 8 members in those days. 800 tugrug of that time would be amount to almost two, three million of today. We received that big amount of money and celebrated the soum Naadan for 3 days after the celebrations were over we came back home, and since then people began to join the cooperative. The rich man whose livestock I was tending had about two thousand and five hundred heads of livestock and about two hundred horses. When the livestock was taken away to the cooperatives that old man went to the mountain and cried there. His wife distributed the sheep flock among us. I received from the cooperative 500 ewes, so after we joined the cooperative our life began to improve substantially. So after tending the sheep for some time in 57 I came to the Nalaikh mine on youth league assignment. When I arrived on assignment I did not know Mongolian. It was so strange, no one understood or knew what language I was speaking. But not knowing a language is not really a problem. Because for the most in a month I learned the Mongolian language, not even a month had passed. When I was told to close the door I was just standing with open mouth because I did not know Mongolian language. So I learned the language in a month and after three months I had already subscribed the ”Unen” newspaper. I was an apprentice of the young Hero of Labour Tuvshin who had also came before on assignment and I had become an expert in building reinforcement in the mines the late Tuvshin and now this Batlaa were my first teachers poor men. They gave me every support. After three months I received the 5th grade and my career as miner began. A man who was the Director of the mine and later the chairman of Uliastai, that poor man even today call me an ox. (0-12-15) The reason why he called me an ox was that I used to pull 5-6 timbers tying them together at one time. Because I was used to hard work and hardship since my childhood. We had no right to go further than door side of that big 6 walled ger. We were fed by only on bits and pieces (жаахан өшөг-unclear) (??? 0-12-37) always some boiled shank of sheep, some butter was given for meal. We never had been given anything more than that. Our history is such, a history of hardship. I had been through those hardships and now I tell my children about it. What do you think how hard our life was, how are you living now. Ah 1948, 49, 50 were the years of the second world war, When we were in school we had a norm of one notebook for a month no more. Notebooks were not available. So we had to apply by our hands oil on white piece of material (this passage is not clear. In past when paper was rare children used small wooden board smeared by ashes and wrote on it, he may be referring to something of that kind) and make our arithmetic calculations on it. Now there is an old miner called Tsahar(an inner Mongolian tribe) Mongolkhaan he was a classmate of mine and knows about it. We were so poor. However, I finished the fourth grade successfully and was told to continue my study in the veterinary school in Khovd aimag but my parents did not let me go. You should look after the livestock, how can we subsist without that they told me. My two elder brothers had gone to the Berk mine some of them to Nalaikh. So I had to take care of my father and mother and lived alongside of them. Thus I stayed in Bayan Ulgii aimag until 57 and after my mother died in the spring I came here. Well this is my history. Though the customs of the Kazakh nation was strict in those olden days, until today I keep in my mind the cruelty of the rich Kazakhs, as soon as we returned(after grazing the sheep flock) they sent us to look after the livestock. (0-14-41) I don’t know why they did that…. We had to carry our rag tag saddle we never had a good mount., had to ride a two year colt, even in winter we had no good boots. Now there is (адууны хомс??) the shank skin of the horse. Byambajav Аh hn. Mongolhaan I had flayed that skin and pulled it on our legs and wore them as shoes. (0-15-07) I am one those kids who had lived through such hard life. Now I have reached 70. I spent the most part of my life in Nalaikh and I am grateful and happy, Nalaikh is a blessed land of mine it is now what I think of it. Well when I was young I was a rather undisciplined and curious young man poking everywhere... from 1957 to 1962 there was pink building which housed the Mongolian club in Nalaikh. Once I went there and saw that a teacher by the name Tserendulam was singing a song. I was very interested in it and was standing there thinking should I also sing or not. Then she asked me why are you standing there sonny and I said sister I would like to sing a song. It was trial contest for amateur artists. They said please you can also take part in it, and asked what song are you going to sing? I asked whether I can sing a song called “Bayan Mongol”(The rich Mongolia). They said OK. When I started singing Bayan Mongol, my voice resounded sharply, it was very good. Well, we will take you as an amateur, she said. That was how I became an amateur singer by singing Bayan Mongol. Nobody gave any training to me. I played dombor (a string instrument of Kazakhs)and started singing by myself. So I continued to be an amateur artist then in 1992 the third festival of people of Mongolian origin as held in Ulaanbaatar. I participated in that festival alone from here(Nalaikh), 1992 was the year when Kazakhs were migrating to the homeland of Kazakhs the Kazakhstan and it was a period of great tumult. So I went to the third festival of the people of Mongol origin we had been rehearsing for three, four days without interruption. The rehearsals were held in the palace (of culture). After that I performed in full Kazakh national attire and was awarded the title of the best amateur artist of Mongolia. Since then I had been performing everywhere almost on all stages, on the occasion of the 80th anniversary of the People’s revolution I received the title of People’s talent. It is how lived. For all these years I had always kept in my mind the thought that I should devote myself for the good of people. The reason why I kept that thought in my heart was that we had been rather undisciplined and frankly speaking run out of money. (0-17-57) Then a Mongolian guy said there is a service, he was a good Mongol. I don’t remember well whether it was the first policlinics, blood donation was given there, shall we go there he said. I said OK and we came, there were two or three nurses. I called hey sister she responded what I wanted. I asked whether we could give our blood. She asked why we were doing that from where did we come. Replied we were from Nalaikh and she invited us, let us to lie down somewhere and took blood from that young man as well as from we. After quite some time she asked is Mongolkhaan there? I replied I am. She said your blood is a group A, a blood of a donor. Since that day I had become a blood donor and gave my blood until I reached 50. Last year at the 11th Congress of the Red Cross I was awarded by the Honorary badge of the Red Cross for donating 40 litre of my blood. This was my wish to help other human beings. Ah in childhood years my father was a famous bone-setter in our place who it is called “Utaach” in Kazakh and “Bariach” in Mongolian. However, my father had 11 children. My father used to tell us that of these 11 children one would become a bone-setter and inherit his abilities. In my childhood I cracked a marrowbone, put in a bag and (mother) sewed it. Then I practiced in setting the bone. When the bone was put in place I would wrap it with threads and then show it to my father, ask him whether it was set in right place or not. He would hold it in his hand and say, sonny, it is good. Probably, in future you will be a bonesetter. I did not know anything about bone setter. Everybody said he is a good boy. This way I became a bonesetter. In 2000, I attended and graduated the massage therapy course for 2 months at the Health centre.??? (0-20-20) I always think that I am doing it for good of the people. I did not account (the number of clients) for 2004, 2005. Since this year, from January 2006 up to now I received about 1300 patients. Various accidents occur at the mine. Many people come with different problems, women who have difficulty to give birth due to a wrong position of a baby, even foreigners come. I never refuse to receive anyone wherever they come from. I do not set a tariff, I ask the clients to give (money) whatever they have or want. I take if a person give the money from his (her) heart. If they give (money) I take, if not I do not insist. Because I am doing it for the good of the people, not for money. You know how people live at the market economy since the democracy emerged. I always take into consideration of this situation. I will not set a tariff. If a client gives (money) I take, if not I will not quarrel with them to get money. I do it this way and it is my life. When I was working as a miner in 1976, yes. No, it is not 1976, but 1966, the work at the third ??? section of Khashgalga??? has stopped. Said it was going to stop. At that time I was in the second group of reserves???. It was suggested to dig a tunnel of 130 metres. I addressed to Tserendorj, Sukhee and Onkhoon and said let’s do it together. They all said yes, yes. I was the head of a brigade. Then I said OK, let’s do it. Then I took my annual leave and went to see the chairman of the (factory) mine. Together with my 3 colleagues. Chairman, can (would you allow) we dig that tunnel of 130 metres in 14 days? We decided to do it. He asked whether we can endure that? Yes, we can we said. So, Tuesday, the next day was a Tuesday. He suggested that it would be better if 4 of you take a pledge in front of the workers. We took a pledge to dig a tunnel in 14 days. Because the work at the third section had almost stopped. (0-23-24) We stayed whole day under the ground. One could endure anything. 3 days and nights. Day and night were unnoticeable. To dig a tunnel meant that 4 of us have to change fortification pillars (буудах соль модоор солино бид дөрвүүл??-hard to understand what he meant)(0-23-46). After 7 days when came up from underground about 30 minutes we could not get dressed.?? And again we have to go under the ground. On the 13th day we accomplished of digging 130 metres tunnel, came to the main entrance of the capital mine. This was what we accomplished. Byambajav Аh does that mean you had dug a tunnel of 130 m long? Mongolhaan Yes, we had dug, dug it by hand. We dug it by hand solely. When a note about was made in my labour book, this particular job been circled around to make it more visible. Byambajav When you had dug that 130 m tunnel did you start digging from the surface of the ground down ... from the surface started digging down... Mongolhaan No. We had directly, started digging directly from a tunnel and installing the fortification. The only problem was we had to remove the soil from the tunnel that had been dug and fortified and we had to make a hole through which by electrically operated wagons the soil was carried away from deep underground, from the deep tunnel ??? (0-24-57) That was how it was done. Because, аh… Byambajav Did you use drill? Mongolhaan Yes, by drill, by drill. Since we had given our promises we almost did not take a nap of 5 minutes. The mine was down below at 1500 m. And from among the miners we were the one who had pledged to do that job, therefore we had no right to sleep. We had to fulfill our promises so we had strived hard and in 13 days we finished the job and the tunnel was received officially. Well the youth of today have become so different that the difference is just like between goat from camel. In my whole life I have never taken 100 gr of alcohol… nor I did try to smoke. I have never drunk arkhi… it was a taboo for me. (0-25-51) the reason it was taboo for me is that I grew up for the good of other persons and help them. I had the impression that sine I was made a man to do good for men I had to devote all my strength for them. Therefore I did not touch arkhi if I wanted to drink I could have taken a hundred gram in any of the households. But I don’t want to do that. I want to cure men and help them so that they can enjoy the life better this is what I keep in my mind. This how I live, this is my life. Byambajav When you were young and was looking after the sheep of the rich what sort of food did you eat, what kind of clothes did you wear. Could you tell about that a little more in detail? Mongolhaan Аh, OK. Аа well we had not very much of clothes. We wrapped our legs in felt and then it was wrapped by a hide of camel or horse, we thus used them as shoes. The clothes of rich men in those days were very nice. If I exaggerate slightly I stood for almost an hour just to saddle the horse of that rich man. The horse was tall and the saddle was very heavy. He called out saddle the horse quick, I had to put the padding under the saddle one by one and it took some time. The dress those rich people used to wear were very rich and nice. Until now I regret one thing. The reason is the overbearing character of those rich, I had a small bore caliber. One day I shot a beautiful fox. I shot that fox and was carrying it happily while grazing the sheep flock. Then the rich man came after me he asked where did I get the fox, I said happily that I shot and got a nice fox. But he came up, hit me once and snatched the fox away. I was left behind crying. I could not do anything to him. I came to my father crying. I told him that I shot a beautiful fox but the rich man snatched it from me. (0-28-47). Sonny, do not regret about it. You will grow up. You will be a man. You will mature, your legs will reach the stirrup, you will be able to earn your livelihood. Thus you would be able hunt a fox yourself. Do not pity about it. Although he (rich man) humiliates us today nobody is eternal. One day he will die he may be boastful today. However, when I reached 14 years, I started to fight against him. Because he was such a hateful person, he trampled me (my dignity) under his feet, he completely ignored my labour. One day I had beaten him up. Kill me if you wish. You trampled on my childhood, on my noble labour. You did not give me a bit of calm and tranquility. At that time we (poor) did not wear traditional Mongol or Kazak deel(robe). We had a kind of dress made of a low quality sheep skin, we were not like the children of now days. Things are getting much better today. In our time things were different. My heel was cracked. In summer, no boots, nothing to wear. I ran bare footed. When it rained, in summer, sometimes rain and snow fell mingling in our land. When I felt cold I urinated on my foot and ran. I went on bare foot in rocky mountains tending the sheep. There was a rich man called Nazir. (Manai av ih aihtar baisan.?? My father was in difficult position or he was a serious person. But this remark seems to be out of place.) There is a Kazakh national food named kaz, smoked horse meat. That old rich man ate kaz himself and used to say I am not hungry why they (his serfs) are so hungry. Rich people are so cruel. Our Kazakh rich men never pitied us. Even now I think what would have happened to me if I had not come to Nalaikh. Naliakh of mine gave me everything, uplifted my life, I have my nice children, I always feel happy. I became a member of the Youth organization when I was in the 4th grade, about 14, 16 years old, then in 1957 I joined in the rank of the Revolutionary Party. (0-31-29).That is my life. The cruelty of rich men of that time did not quit my heart even at my old age. Things happened in childhood ….Imagine what kind of life have we had. When I tell my children about it they do not believe. No, Dad do not tell tales. For me it is in my heart, sometimes it hurts my heart. When I come home at noon after grazing the sheep, they always demanded to do things fast, fast. Drink your tea fast. In our land we milked sheep twice a day, afternoon at one o’clock and at five or six o’clock in the evening. There was no time to rest. (??? 0-32-21). I went through this rough road of life and at my old age we are now enjoying a good life, now it is really nice. Although I had…. a very hard life in childhood at my old age my livelihood had improved this is what I think about my life. Yes. I had not accomplished a feat for my country but my country appreciated my sincere labour and that is why I am enjoying this pleasant life. This is what I tell to some… people. When some say something bad about the Mongols I refute them saying while living among the Mongols why do say that, we were living without permanent place, residence. You can not say bad things about Mongols, because this is the our native place, we were born here. It gave us life, how can you say bad things about it. It is what I think and believe. Byambajav Do you know about the history of Kazakh people living in Bayan Ölgii, wre they permanently lived there if not where did they come from? What is their origin? Do you have any recollection of your father or old people who migrated to this place? Mongolhaan Probably, the Kazakh nationality has mainly Chinese blood and origin.(0-34-02) Why I say it, because my father was 16 years old at that time. It was said that the national minorities living in Bayan Ulgii and Natal of Shinjan were moved out to Russian territory. Byambajav Who? Mongolhaan Well, those minorities living there ??? (0-34-31) Big ? (0-34-32) Byambajav Why was it so? Mongolhaan (Тэр одоо оросын нутаг дээр сүү, сүүгийн наймаан гэж одоо омогдоо л аваад очоод нийлүүлнэ гэж ингэж хөглөж явж байсан байгаам.-Meaning of this sentence is hard to understand) They were told to sell milk and milk products in Russian territory and on their way to be driven they had an adventure. About 40 soldiers pursued and drove them into the Russian territory. They also took some people met on their way and put 2-3 carts at night??? and killed those soldiers. Killed soldiers and some fled back to Shinjan and others scattered in Bayan Ulgii, Ulaangoson soum of Bayan Ulgii. So those Kazakhs decided to live there. That was the situation. If they came into the Russian territory it could not had happened. The cruel policy above mentioned originated from here. Yes, that was the history. We (our land) lived in a very difficult situation during the years of 1937-38, during the hunt on counter revolutionaries. By the present standards if someone was living well-off he was arrested and his son as an offspring of a counter revolutionary. Simply arrested as an offspring of counter element. Even though there was no conspiracy of any sort but people were arrested in out land. Many young people were arrested as the children of counterrevolutionaries. Said that his father was a counterrevolutionary. Even they wanted to arrest us however they did manage to do that. My father was sixteen years old at that time. At that time even ordinary people were arrested. There was a man named Halkh bayan (rich) Khalii in Bayn Ulgii he was not arrested as counterrevolutionary element.(0-36-39) It was an ordinary case to slander anyone as a counterrevolutionary and so they simply went there and arrested him. It was such a cruel act. It was said that many, mostly young people were killed at Khujirbulan. Some managed to escape. There was one from our land. An old man whose name was Endbai, he escaped (from that killings), and was alive in 60s. He told us how he escaped. They were dragged from truck and tractor?? … from two corners. Such a cruel act. Endbai managed to escape from that. He was quite strong young man. They killed many people in Khovd aimag, brought others in Khujirbulan and killed them. It was said so. Some said it was a policy of the Revolutionary Party. Who knows whether it is true or not. Said it was a work of Stalin. I do not know. Byambajav Why is it so? Mongolhaan It was Stalin’s policy campaign. He gave instructions to Choibalsan, they say so, whether it is true or not, who knows. Anyway, I assume that life and cultural level of minorities living among Mongols could be much better if there was not such arrests and killings in our land. Because who would stay behind when all intelligent people with great knowledge of the history and traditions of Kazakh nationality were arrested. In the winter camp of our land 3 women killed each other by knife when their husbands ere arrested. It was a true history of what happened. Since our husbands were arrested as insurgents, we could not live in this land and they stabbed each other by knives.(0-39-13).Yes, such things have happened in Mongolian land. (Том хүн шиг амьдрал тийм.??-unclear what he meant) Such was my life as a grown up.? As for Bayan Ölgii aimag (capital) is concerned it roamed from place to place and at last the writer Khurmakan suggested the present site near the river as aimag centre, they discussed it among others and agreed, that was how Bayan Ölgii was founded. Then they asked Khurmakan shall we give the name Bayan Ölgii, he said yes, it could mean a child in cradle. This is the story [lit: history].