EN061104B Kazakhs Interview on the Kazakhs in Nailakh Satibaldi Byambajav The Oral History of Twentieth Century Mongolia 2006-11-15 en XML Male 1947 Kazakh Educated Retired, accountant Bayanolgy aimag, Tolbo sum Nalaikh, 4-th khoroo, Tuulyn 18-4 None One of 6 children Father of Five 061104 Satibaldi Well let me tell you in brief how those who arrived here in Nalaikh settled here. Mostly people who pursued better life, those who had no means of livelihood came here to find a better life. Recruitment was organised seven times. In those seven recruitment the smallest group consisted 30, 24 persons, the smallest one. The highest number was a group consisting of about seventy individuals from Bayan Ulgii. They were recruited not just from our soum, Tolbo soum but Deluun, now that Altai, Buyant, Ulaan khust ah Bayan nuur, Altantsogt etc. A number of people came from Bulgan. Ah there are two Bulgan soums, Bulgan soum of Khovd aimag, Bulgan soum of Bayan Ulgii. There are significant number of people who came from both of these soums. And mostly unmarried or single men arrived. They arrived here and married, they earned money got wives and children and settled down here. Ah three generations of miners live here. Yes, three generations. I have to speak about the fourth generation, yeah. The fourth generation of the miners have become (boneless??) jobless. (ясгүй ??болчоод байгаа нь энэ-unclear) Just like I told you before. Those who came here received good salaries. The minimum wage was 600. The highest a miner received was 2000 tögrög. (0-01-47) Ah in the whole country I don’t know whether any received such a high salary. Probably no one received that much. By according the study the wages of the miners were very high indeed. Ah those who arrived here in 30’s went into the mine in the clothes they wore. Coal was mined exclusively by hands, by pickaxes. And later drill was introduced. Drilling was introduced, and at that time while drilling they had to work in humid conditions, some times in water but they began to wear water-boots (Wellington) in beginning of 50’s or by the end of 40’s. Before that Mongols wore their deel, Kazakhs wore their national deel at work. This is the truth, in real life it was like that. Ah Nalaikh mine was put exploitation in 20’s for several years the mining was not really put in working order till the end of 20’s, miners wore their own clothes. Ah in 30’s miners were provided with special gears as casque (helmet) and working clothes such as water-boots and masks. The helmets were of different types, there are three generations of these helmets. At first the helmet head gears… had not lamps. At the intial stage only lanterns were used. The lanterns were hanged on the walls. After the coal deposit was loosened by explosives miners came in carrying lanterns and shovelled the coal to extract. Ah if I were to tell you about this historic path it is going to be a long story to tell. There is no need to talk about it. Ah in any way livelihood of those who came here improved and they had their families. In those days tax was very high, tax on livestock in the country side. An example of that high tax…there was the counting of livestock of the year and by the next spring you have to supply (to the state) everything according to the set quota, supply butter (milk), supply goat down, wool everything according to the quota (for each animal). And according to the census for following several years you had to supply the products on the basis of the previous census. So basically many who wanted to escape from that tax also came here. (0-04-26) Then there are many different problems one faces in real life situation. Ah there were poor people. Second besides the poor, there were people who wanted to escape from that high tax. They say that the livestock tax was extremely high. In those days you had to supply milk сүү сүү ??? (0-04-47) and butter (to the state). And it was very hard to meet fully that quota of butter supply, people of that period talk very much about it. That was why encountering various problems they had to seek a better life and had no other options than to come here. The recruitment was carried out at a later date. The situation of those who came on recruitment was completely different. They received as lift up money or benefit 300 tögrög at the beginning, they received a ger, in such way the benefits rapidly grew. The last person came in 90, the last recruited person came in 80. Ah during that period miners received special gear norms, scientific methods of mining was introduced and miners enjoyed 29 different incentives and remuneration, 29 different benefits for the miners. That 29 benefits…which included the special gears and clothing. For example, they had free meal. In 90 when miners entered the mine they had free hot meal, they had showers (after work). Everything was ready. In a sense they enjoyed 29 different surplus services, that is to say the benefits they enjoyed. That was the situation. Then there was the benefit for years of work in such way number of all small incentives reached 29 in aggregate... Byambajav They received. Satibaldi ... they received. When a miner retired the pension was high. Ah in such a way there were many different incentives. In order to supply the need of Ulaanbaatar for fuel every issue was taken up by the Political Bureau and the issue was basically resolved, it was taken up at such a high level. And accordingly (miners) were able to supply Ulaanbaatar as required. However, today miners had become beggars. Most of them had died, and met their end. There is no party or government that care about thme. (0-06-56) Such is the life of the mine today. The Minister is responsible for this dire life (situation) of the mine. If he gave the mine (to Nalaikh) and turned it into smaller mines as it was originally then we would not be in such a situation as today. Previously the situation was completely different the mine received subsidy from the state. It was like that. Our miners now say that Minister Jigjid ruined us and feel injured by him. But today Minister Jigjid had become merited worker (of industrial sector). There is no one who would care about the mine. Minister Jigjid and the secondly the Revolutionary party are responsible for the present dire life (situation) of Nalaikh. Byambajav You have been living among the Mongols firstly. Secondly you know very well the Kazakhs who have been living among the Mongols so can you say what was situation when they first came from their native land and start a new life here. How did the Mongols, in general, the Mongolian people recieve you here? Satibaldi Well I don’t have official documents of that period, that I can show you. Byambajav Simply your recollections ... Satibaldi Аh speaking of recollections they say at the beginning it was difficult for them. However, the difficulty was not that awesome. Because of language, firstly they don’t know the language, because of that they had difficulties. Until they learned the language they were looked upon and disdained. They were called by bad names as dog or pigs who don’t learn the language. These were such minor and indeed trivial things. Otherwise there was no such thing as you are a Kazakh I am a Mongol, a khalkh and I should be over you, there was no such attitude, I haven’t heard of any, haven’t heard of any such incidence. Ah simply sometimes they could not understand each other because of the language problem. Therefore they were told that they don’t know the language, that they were such a people etc such kind of talks were there but there were no confrontation not at all. In particular in Nalaikh I haven’t heard of any such incidence, we live in true harmony and friendship, in deep underground mine you become all brothers. Even when I was studying I haven’t seen such thing of course there could an individual with such wrong view point among one hundred thousand. (0-09-24) May be because of some argument they could come to some sort of quarrel otherwise… in my view we all live very friendly. Byambajav Well as for the personal relations it may be so. For example during festivities and celebrations, are there very much differences of customs? Satibaldi Well when I was young I heard how the Tsagaan sar was observed in this or that way. Certainly the Tsagaan sar of those days and of today has become somewhat different. Kazakhs traditionally observed the Nauryz since ancient days. Nauryz celebration was abandoned during the socialist period. It vanished, celebration of Nauryz was simply prohibited. Even though these celebrations were observed in the past Nauryz and Tsagaan sar were both not celebrated, then since 50’s it was observed as the day of herdsmen. We were brought by the teachings that in socialism the gap between rich and poor would disappear. We followed that but since 90’s the Nauryz celebration actively re-emerged. Otherwise before we simply heard about that Nauryz was being celebrated here and there but never have seen the celebration by our own eyes. It would be not an exaggeration to say that we have not seen it at all. Basically it is not an exaggeration to say that we have not seen it. Because instead of Nauryz celebration we came to know more about the May or March celebrations. That was why the true tradition was abolished, it has vanished, tradition was lost. Mongols their Tsagaan sar and similarly Kazakhs were unable to observe their traditional celebrations. But lately they observe very actively. Today we observe Nauryz constantly, it is a spring festivity observed on the 22 of March. Ah this day is observed basically by all in Nalaikh may be about 90 percent, may be 80-90 percent (of the Kazakh) observe the celebration. Byambajav Do you celebrate the Tsagaan sar as well? Satibaldi There are a group of people who observe Tsagaan sar, not all(Kazakhs), approximately 20 percent of them probably observe. (0-11-52) Ah Tsagaan sar is observed along with the other celebration. The reason for that is I think say you are a chairman of an organization. Early in the morning his workers would come to greet him, therefore he has to prepare the dishes and pastries of the celebration. Think that there is a herdsman in the country side, for example take the livestock breeders…. in Erdene soum. There lived an old man, a relative of my father. Yes. He used to prepare for the Tsagaan sar celebration and boil the full back of sheep other necessary food as well as gifts. And all those who live nearby would visit him (to pay their respect) and yes, they greet him(on the occasion of Lunar new year). They eat and drink, they are offered strong beverages. Ah the old man observe all the customs just like the Mongols. Ah Nauryz celebrations come, he would again observe it(laughed) the same with Nauryz. It goes like this I said not so many do this Nalaikh. But in the country side every one does the same. In Tunkhel, Mandal, this Erdenet they(Kazkhs) generally all observe twice these two celebrations, observe one after the other. Nauryz is celebrated in Nalaikh widely, they observe both of these celebrations. But as for the Kazakhs not all of the observe them. It means that about 20 percent of Kazakhs observe these celebrations twice. That is it. In brief this is it. I think I shut my eyes did I ?(while being photographed) (laughed) Well that is all, sons I don’t have anything more to say. I mentioned briefly about my occupation what and what kind of job I was doing. I told you that I worked as the chairman of the committee of Trade unions, did I? Since the I am an unemployed person because my job was the mine. Then I was working as an economist in the administrative office, the chairman of the statistical service and the chairman of tax service till I was sent on medical leave as a person unfit to work. That is it. Byambajav Why in your opinion were Kazakhs from Bayan Ölgii chosen to work in Nalaikh? Satibaldi The reason for choosing them was not because of a (official) decision to bring them into the mine to work. Industriousness. (0-14-39) Industriousness, and they carry out the duties assigned to them faithfully. And, generally, they go their own ways. And they are very hard working and that is why apparently they were chosen. Our people are very hard working and press very hard disregarding their own lives. (laughs) That was the main reason. Because Kazakhs are not lazy, very purposeful, by character not very naïve. Taking into account all these characters it was apparently decided to recruit them as workers of the mine. No, they did not loose anything by coming to Nalaikh. However, of the late many adopted Mongol customs, forgot their customs and began forgetting their native tongue. This is a sad thing. If they could keep their language and culture then there is less problem. But it is hoped that things will be much better than before. In the next generation, say in fifth generation, there is the danger that the Kazakh traditions will be lost, it is the imminent issue. People say we were under Manchu domination for 200 years. And for example after 200 years a nation could be assimilated. But after thinking I came to the conclusion that a nation may be assimilated on their own territory but not in a foreign land, a nation into another. Then also there is the danger to become assimilated while living on one’s own territory, this happens. Yes. Well, in brief that is all. Byambajav Some time ago I was taking interview from an old man. Satibaldi Ааn hn. Byambajav Then that man told me that before the revolution, just after revolution venereal diseases, in other words syphilis was very common and Mongols suffered from the disease. Almost 90 percent of the population suffered from it. Ah, because Kazakhs who pay much more attention to their hygiene... Satibaldi Yes. Byambajav ... basically they, in particular, did not suffer much from syphilis and gonorrhoea he said. Satibaldi Not very much. Byambajav About that, could you speak about that? Satibaldi (laughs) It could be possible. Yes. That Kazakh number one religion teaches (people) importance of sanitation and hygiene(0-16-55), teaches justice, teaches to be healthy and hygienic, to be honest. This is the main doctrine of this religion. It teaches to keep the family tradition as well. The family tradition/lineage should not be contaminated. It is not allowed to get wife from the same clan. In another words not to marry among themselves. It is implanted in the brains (of our people) by our religious teachings. In one’s brain. Secondly, if you are a Muslim man, the foreskin of penis must be circumcised for hygienic purpose, remove the foreskin. It is said that this is the characteristic of a Muslim man. When the foreskin of penis is cut off, it becomes loose, it is not affected by various skin diseases because the skin is not contaminated. The skin is clean. It is also said that one should preach 5 times a day and wash it (penis) 5 times. 5 times a day. Do not know whether everybody does it accordingly or not. Mongols, for example, do not wash. It is not taught. It has not become a custom. But in Kazakh tradition it is a must, hygiene is a very highly observed. It is one of the important factor to influence the family lineage. Even now one year old boys are being circumcised by an operation. In Nalaikh. Among Kazakhs. Byambajav How? Satibaldi By cutting off the foreskin of the penis.. Byambajav Does it bleed? Satibaldi It bleeds. But it is not so dangerous. It just cuts off the foreskin.(laughs) The loose skin. When it is cut off, the skin is pulled back, the head of the penis is not covered by skin, that means it will not be contaminated. That is the simple way to explain it. It is called “net”.(0-19-37) Sunnit. Sundet. If you are a Muslim you should have Sundet. Sundet means to be circumcised and follow the principle of washing 5 times a day and keep hygiene. Byambajav What about a woman? Satibaldi It does not concern women. Women are women by nature. Byambajav Is it compulsory to make washing? Satibaldi If you read the book it is said that washing should be observed. Byambajav Do you read the book 5 times a day? Satibaldi Yes, I read. I read and write by …? I read books published in Xinjiang. I am not a lama or mulla , but I have all books written by different people. How to take care of, how to clean, how many times do it during the day. 5 times. It has a time and limit. This is all about it. Nowadays it is expanding and improving. Democracy won. Democracy gave the freedom of religion. In old times it was prohibited to learn religious teachings. If a party member attends a religious congregation he would be punished. There was a such rule that party members should not attend religious gatherings. Yes. It was so. One of the advantages of this religion (Muslim) is such….? At present they do some research, research studies are carried out in Bayan Ulgii and (0-21-28) compared with other aimags, it says it is different. Byambajav Do you have any oral history or recollection spoken by your ancestors or elderly Kazakh people concerning the Kazakh nationality and people? To mention at the end of your interview? Satibaldi I am not a storyteller or reciter of epics. However, I would mention one thing which stays as our tradition, this is the ceremony of taking a bride. We have a rule to give recommendation to a bride when she comes , it is called “bitachar”(0-22-26) Recommendation to a bride. Recommendation should not be a lengthy lecture of old people. It is given not by old people. They will be young people, giving detailed advice for everyday life to the bride; now you have stepped over the threshold of this house, you will have such, such good times, as well confront such, such problems, how do you overcome these problems, tell her do’s and do not’s. This custom “bitachar”is being well observed. Specially after the democracy. It became a tradition in Nalaikh. Bitachar was held at every wedding. When I was young I recited it by heart. Now I can not do it well. It is good for today’s youth to know, it gives good influence for newly married couples. I will also mention in my book about it, it is important to remind young people not to loose this good tradition. I think that I will write some of my ideas to be remembered by our youth. There is a saying “a man has a brother, a deel has a collar”, now I am an old man I have to leave my recollections to my younger generation. We have to leave our memories, Mongol or Kazakh alike. There are traditions, customs. Memories. For this reason I am writing this book for my next generation. I am planning to finish it this year and publish it by next year. Yes. Byambajav Thank you very much for giving an interview sparing your time. Wish you success in your work. Satibaldi Thank you. Thank you for making such an enormous scientific research, taking your time and effort, meeting with us, listening to and learning about our life, history and culture, to keep for the posterity for our next generations Byambajav Thank you.