EN061202 1990s and family Interview on 1990 and impact on family Ayushjav Byambajav The Oral History of Twentieth Century Mongolia 2006-12-18 en XML Male 1942 Hövd Aimag, Darvi sum 12st district, 12-28, Ulaanbaatar None 061202 Byambajav Well thank very much for accepting my invitation and giving this interview. Before we start the interview there are two issues which I want to ask from you and clarify. Firstly if you wish in the interview you may keep your name anonymous or else you may say it openly. What do you think? Ayushjav Аh I have nothing to keep secret. Byambajav Well, thank you. Secondly all the information and facts contained in your interview we may publish after ten years, twenty years as research material. First, it may be used in newspaper publications and journals as reference or in public media such as radio and TV recordings of your interview may be used as reference material as well in broadcasts on history. Would you give us the right to use it in this way? Ayushjav Well I can give you. Byambajav Well thank you. Lets now start the interview. First of all would you please recall and tell me the history of your childhood? Ayushjav Yes, I’d do. Well, I am a native of Darvi soum of Khovd aimag. My family name is Alag aduut(He who has speckled horses). I am Bayankhuugiin Ayushjav, born in 1942 in Darvi soum of Khovd aimag. Well I spent my young age at the hands of my father and mother in my native land. Well my father was a paramedic, in that given period he was called a doctor. Ah in fact he was one the first nurses (sanitarian). My father in Khovd aimag in 1932 and afterward when the former Minister of Health Tuvaan arrived with Russian specialists and organized the first course for sanitarians in the western aimags he attended that first course and finished it. After completing that course he provided medical assistance to people, he was such a merited medical worker. My father lived till 85 and worked for his entire life in medical institutions. In recognition of his work he had been awarded by the state with the Medal of honour of Labour and Order of Pole Star. My mother was native of Darvi soum. Seven children were born from my parents, of these seven two were boys the remaining five were girls. The offspring of these seven people are now many in numbers. As for me I have seven children, over twenty nephews and nieces, as of today I am person who has seen my great-great-grand son. I am such a person. Well my childhood years in the country side had passed in wonderful time. Though it was a time of war, in the country side we did not experience any suffering, my father though he worked for the state, we had a number of livestock, father also cultivated grain, we tilled land by camel drawn plough and planted grain. We cultivated the grain in spring and harvested it in autumn. After harvest we sold the grain to the people of nearby soums. So market relations did exist during that time. Our Darvi soum is the southernmost soum of Khovd aimag bordering with soums of Govi-Altai and Javkhan aimag which did not grow grain. People from the soums of our Khovd and the bordering soums came to buy grain. It was a barter trade they bought the grain in exchange of cream and various other dairy products. Ah it was such a market, when you now remember and compare that period with the present the herders of that period had market relations. That was why we cultivated grain, sold it and bought cattle, and prepared our (winter) provisions, stored dairy products. That was such a wonderful time. While young I grew up helping my father and mother and tending sheep herd and other livestock. (0-05-31) We were not like the children of today. We were extremely obedient to our father and mother, tried to be as much help to our father and mother. That was so. We took turns in tending the cattle, the sheep herd. On day of your turn you would do the job diligently. I recall that on many occasions we rode to distant places to help our relatives to tend their sheep herd, in morning arrive by horse tended the sheep herd for the day in evening brought them back to sheep pen and came back home. It is really wonderful to recall it back now. The past was such a time. Well as for the attendance of school it was a period when country folks were somewhat reluctant to send their children to schools. That was why my three elder sisters, I had three elder sisters, my father, why I don’t know, did not send my three sisters to school, I had one elder brother, it was the same with him, he almost did not go to school. I was the only one who went to school. However I was enrolled in school not at eight but almost at ten. So from the first grade I went through school, I finished 4th grade in our soum and was transferred to Khovd centre to continue my studies. That time my father and mother moved to Khovd aimag along with me. So I graduated from the 10th grade in Khovd aimag, well finished the 10th class. I graduated from the 10 year school of Khovd aimag in 1963, The Khovd ten year school. In those days those who graduated with excellence was awarded with gold medal. The first group of students received gold medals that year. I finished Khovd 10 year school with gold medal. Well since my father was a medical worker he insisted that I become a doctor. So on the insistence of my father and in according to my own interest I have become a doctor. In past there was the medical institute, I entered that institute and graduated from the chair of medicine (lit. medical treatment). Well after graduating from the chair of medical treatment I came on my own request to the present clinic where I now work. Well the reason I came here, was the following our professors Jadamba and Gurdorj who taught (read lectures) us classes related to psychiatry, were highly skilled professionals of this field and scholars. And two three years before we graduated they invited us to work with them here. Because it was very difficult to find someone to work with psychiatric patients. Doctors were reluctant to work in the clinic. And this institution had an acute shortage of doctors (0-08-57) in those days. That was why I, firstly, on my own request, secondly according to the wish of my teachers I began to work with psychiatric patients, since 1968 until today. This means for almost 39 years. Byambajav It is. Ayushjav I am devoted to this service. Well this a very difficult profession. In those days problems of psychiatric patients were not understood that well. Psychiatric patients were marginalised among the population. Even the assistance and expenses devoted to them from the state budget was insignificant. When I arrived our clinic had only 12 doctors. Doctors, today we have almost 100 doctors. So only 12 of us were working when we had about 350 patients at that time. So I, a freshly graduated doctor, arrived and was put right way in charge of 75 patients. Definitely it was hard. The doctors there were waiting for me to get their leave. And as soon as I arrived they left on vacation, four of us came together to the clinic at first from those who graduated the institute together with us. Well those 4 worked very well, one of them had now departed(died). Ah the rest worked here until their retirement. In general from our graduates many doctors worked in this filed. Well as for me I, it is somewhat funny, that in those days you followed the instructions of your father and mother as well as were bent to implement in life what your professors and teachers taught you (lit. were telling you). I worked hard to become a good professional and a good doctor. It was indeed a good cause, it is said that that was a period of rapid development of psychiatric clinic. We had everything sufficiently. Even salaries we received had additional raise of some tugrugs for the difficult working condition. (0-11-33) In those days it was an raise from 30 to 50 tugrugs. Then I was working in the section of patients with severe mental disorders I received a salary of 750 tugrugs. In those days the Minister for Health probably received a thousand tugrug, his deputies, heads of departments, apparently, received 750, 800 tugrugs. We received such high salaries. Well special attention was devoted to the patients. Well this is what I can say of my job, I married in 1969, ah in 1964. Well at that time my wife was studying in medical college. After our marriage 7 children were born between us. All of them graduated from 10 year school. However, except one they did not finish any high educational institutes. They all received the professional orientation needed during that time and found the school and the job, most of them are drivers, there is a professional medical nurse. They have such jobs. Well my children enjoyed good life, our life was also good during the socialist period. It could not be otherwise. In those days 1 kg meat cost 7 tugrug and 50 mungu. Though we had 7 children thanks to the salary we received we had managed make living without debts or loans till our elderly age, in those days. My wife received a salary of 400 tugrug, mine was 700. By that 1100 tugrug we could, without any problem, feed and dress our 7 children, and had no debts nor loans. Though we managed that way we had no opportunity to save any money. The money I received was just enough to meet the expenses of the children and the household. That was how I lived my life. Just after the school at the beginning I worked as a resident doctor, since I came here our clinic has the section of insane patients I worked in that section. After a year I had become the chief of the section. After 2 years I became a deputy chief of the clinic. In 1971 (0-14-24). I worked as the deputy chief of the clinic until 1976. From 1976 I was transferred as the deputy chief of the newly founded out patient health aid centre in Ulaanbaatar which was separated from the psychiatry clinic. I worked at this organization without interruption for almost 36 years. Until now. Recently the two organization, the Shar Khadny(Yellow cliff –name of a place on the eastern part UB ) psychiatric clinic and our psychiatry health centre was, integrated and expanded as one organization the Psychiatric health centre. I am working here again as deputy chief of the organization(centre). During this period this organization was integrated and separated several times. Previously I worked also as deputy chief of the organization. I spent most of my life and work at the level of deputy chief. During this period I was a deputy chief of 4 Darga ( Chief or superior). These 4 dargas were the best scientists in the field of psychiatric health and intelligent persons. I have learnt a lot from them. I have also been through many things. The present darga is also a very good person. Erdenebayar is a doctor, professor of the Health Science, we are working as the Chief and deputy chief for 16, 17 years together. There are a lot of good things to say about the socialist period. It was fortunate that I was born, raised to adulthood, educated and worked during that time under the socialism until 1990s. There is no other way to say that it was a good time. Our generation and our parents say that it was a nice period. We always thought that period was nice and good.(0-17-13). However, it is evident that during the time when we have not yet entered the market economy, the level of development was quite low, it impeded the development, hampered the developmeent the process. At that time one party system existed, demand for work was very high, there were many systems of supervision and control. It was real tough. Much time was spent by studying documents of (party)meetings. Notes were made of them. And we gave tests to certain officials and punished if one could not pass the test. When there was one party system such things were common. There were not enough incentives, bonus and rewards. Although I worked about 40 years for the public service I have not yet got an apartment house from the state. Generally the distribution of houses for health service workers was not fair. Especially the state paid really poor attention to health workers who were working with the patients suffering from mental disorder. During these 40 years of my work, only 5, 6 apartments were allocated to this organization. As of myself, Apartments were scarce, then firstly I had no intention to get an apartment and leave behind my old aged parents, secondly we had many children. It was quite complicated. Although apartments were given by state free of charge. Later I submitted many petition requests for an apartment but have not achieved anything. Besides something awful had happened in my life. It was the persecution. There was a terrible repression all over Mongolia in 1981, 1982. We know from the history that there were a lot of repressions. Repressions of 1937, repression of 1938. Then repressions of the period of the Revolutionary party such as case of Lookhuuz and various others(0-19-52), the so called confusion of intellectuals and many repressions had happened probably ours was the last one. It was a serious case labelled as the doctors’ case. It was a false accusation.(0-20-07) And those who first concocted this accusation were state procurators of that period, procurators. The case of doctors’ was invented by procurators. And it was invented namely by several individuals who worked in State procurator’s office. During that time a notorious woman by the name of Otgonbayar was working there. Ah there was a procurator Jaltsav. Well, it was an awful persecution initiated by them for the sake of gaining prestige and high positions. In that case not only doctors but intellectuals of different professions were implicated during and exactly in the same period of 81, 82. The Prisons were filled with professionals, people with high education. It was said that in those days a person with high education was rarely seen in prison and the prisoners were surprised. In those days military officers, doctors and people of many different professions were put in jail. In particular, there were many officers of the army, they were accused of mistreatment of soldiers, for beating, slapping or calling by various rude names. On that accusation many army officers were imprisoned. As for the doctors from the 12 doctors of our clinic many were implicated in that case. And eight out of the 12 were sentenced from 5 to 9 years in jail. The rest got suspended sentences. It was 12 doctors from our clinic but from prison clinics and other clinics many more doctors were jailed. Now almost 100 doctors were implicated in this case to a various extent at that time. I was blamed in such serious case and was sentenced. I was accused of borrowing money, I was slandered that under the pretext of borrowing 100 tugrug I, in fact, borrowed 3000 tugrug from a person on the basis of that false testimony I was punished. At that time I was and at present I am the Deputy Chief of the clinic. The main problem was that we were called to certify to the court the psychiatric condition of the accused. Those who were accused of homicide and those who had been sentenced to death according to our law should be subjected to psychiatric test. (0-23-08) And we were responsible for carrying out of the test. In those days I carried out the test together with the chief of out patients clinic, I worked also as the chief of prison expertise (commission). Now for example I was doing the job of this deputy chief. Well we had encountered a difficult problem. There were some basis for that. But when there was just faint basis for accusation it was blown out of proportion and too many people were caught up in that terrible persecution. The wrongdoings connected with this case are well-known. Those who had been involved in it, who carried out this persecution are all dead now. Therefore, there is no need for me from the point view of ethics to call their names and say that because of them we had been victimized so and so on, after all we had been working together and eating food from the kettle. Those events of 70’s and 80’s had become a past history. I am a person who wrote very many complaints about this matter. In those days there was the central committee (of the party), and the government I sent many petitions to these organizations. Ah I sent my petitions to the Supreme court and the state procurator. However, it was considered as case already decided(closed) and until we were out of jail it was not taken up for reconsideration. Now for example until a person jailed for 9 years came out of the prison after 7 years the case was not taken up again. Well later the case was reconsidered. Mounkhtug, chairman of the supreme court took the matter up some were absolved completely. For example a doctor called Khurlee who had been involved in the case together with me had been absolved and he left prison after serving three years. I was exonerated from all charges by the decision of the plenum of the supreme court rather late. However, ethical and psychological pressure had remained as it was in the past. And in addition to that exactly at that time two of my children graduated from the… 10 year school. But they could not enter institutes since then. So they enrolled in the school of metal works and became drivers. (0-25-41) Some are working in public offices and some are working as drivers by profession abroad. Then the two girls also finished their schools. They also could not get high education. This is an example of how my persecution had cast its shadow on my children. Ah then I should have received an apartment, which I did not get. Until today the issue is not settled. Until today various references were given to me but so far they are giving an apartment and apparently they have an understanding why this had happened. I believe that it is the bad consequence of that persecution. I was not awarded by any order or medal. Because I did not receive them I did not deteriorate, I was not offended because I have not received any awards. However, since I have done quite a bit for the country, I still feel slightly hurt. People who have not accomplished much or someone mediocre become merited workers, or receive high awards. This is an illustration of instances of injustices that still exist in Mongolia. Then I did my work quite well. If you ask why there are two, three points which I could emphasize. Well in Mongolia workers had three shifts. When this three shifts were in place it was very difficult for those in shifts. They had very little time, very little time for rest. Ah on the other hands except the busy hours the working conditions were very hard. That was the situation. Well from seventy, eighty six I introduced 4 shifts. This on one hand leaves more time to rest for the workers in a shift. On the other hand from the point view of economy it is beneficial to the country. Because there was the system of payment by five, ten percent or even twofold for overtime work, that problem was no longer there. I tried this system at our clinic, and this system was introduced in Mongolia, that what was tried by me at our clinic. So after 6 years this system of shift was introduced throughout the country. It is evident that I saw the benefit of it a few years ahead. (0-28-22) Well on the other hand I began to put into test the 5 working days in a week system since 87, 88. Then after almost 10 years 5 working days were introduced throughout Mongolia. It was essential for our staff who were working under very difficult conditions. The workers had more spare time. Ah since they had longer rest they had the time to devote to their family, the opportunity to do their domestic chores. It gave opportunities to do something for themselves, but not to worship money. As far as my job is concerned since 1971, as a professional I was involved personally in drafting legislations concerning the psychiatric health. Many legislations and regulations were adopted. Why I was involved, because firstly, I was a deputy chief, secondly I was an executive officer at our organization. As an executive officer under the Chief there was not a single rule, instruction or resolution which was not passed through my hands. I was removed from my job for 3 years when I was in prison. During 1983, 1984 and 1985. During this period not a single order, resolution with nationwide scope was adopted. I reviewed (all documents), what kind of documents were adopted. Nothing was adopted. After I continued my job we have succeeded a lot. Law on Psychiatric Health of Mongolia was adopted in 2000. I was involved in drafting of the bill. I, myself, was the Head of a working group on the preparation of the Law. So the National Program on Psychiatric Health was elaborated, then adopted by the Government and it is now under implementation. I was involved in drafting it. Now I am also involved in implementing it personally. I am very proud about it. I do care about these mentally retarded people as my children. They are extremely difficult persons. Pitiful. People do not understand them. (0-31-04) They dream about love and care. On the other hand it is difficult for them to be educated, get job because, in general, psychiatric illness starts in early childhood. For this reason there is a great need for them to get benefit from the state. There is a group which sets up labour disability (percentage) of mentally retarded persons. I was personally involved in drafting several instructions for this group. According to these instructions many people are receiving their benefits for disability. Yes, it is. As a professional, I consider myself as a qualified, skilled doctor on psychiatric health. On the other hand I have the title of professor of the Clinic. Here I worked on quite a number of scientific researches. Together with our scientists and doctors. This is my biography in brief. Byambajav Right Ayushjav Although I was educated and worked during the socialist time, I very much support, as an intellectual, the democratic, revolutionary changes which occurred in 1990, 19991 for the development of Mongolia. I was a member of the Mongolian People’s Revolutionary Party. I joined the party in 1971 and was expelled from the Party in 1982 without giving the me opportunity to explain. ( lit. without any testimony). And I did not want to renew my party membership. They behaved themselves improperly. They should themselves put the question of exoneration. Mongolian people’s revolutionary party is extremely slow moving party in this respect. Even now it is so. Well cases of many intellectuals who had been persecuted and repressed in the past had been reviewed and they were exonerated or absolved of any wrongdoings or similar measures have been taken. But it is something in the name only. Until now the Mongolian people’s revolutionary party has not been able to say its words concerning those repressions generation after generation. (0-34-01) It is such a party. As for me, in general, I believe that the orientation we have taken is the right one. Even now in the multi-party system there is the need for leading parties at any rate. Though the United States have many parties there are only two leading parties. They are in power in turns. Ah just like that though Mongolia has many parties, probably, there should two main or leading parties among them. They are trying to be but they have until now failing on many instances, the Democratic party and the revolutionary party. These two should be the leaders. However, it seems to me one is too prideful of its own experience while the other is rather youngish and short of experienced personnel (cadres) and has not accomplished much. And they have not yet found their way. This is how we see them now and we support both of them, in supporting we don’t take the position that repudiate completely or negate one of them. In general what we call the people as such the people will inevitably support the party which is beneficial to them no matter in which country it is. I am of this view. My family members also holds a similar attitude. But majority of my children migrated abroad. Well now first of all in essence because the revolutionary party is not a good party they had, in a sense, to flee from their own country. If you ask why they could not find job here, could not find. For a driver there was no job. After 90’s it was very difficult for a builder to find a job. So majority of my children left the country to work abroad. So they migrated and are living in several countries. And they enjoy different level of living standards. It is really not a good thing to migrate abroad. If possible it would have been better to live in their native land and work according to their professions that would have been beneficial for our country as well for the given individual. Ah my children are working in sewing factories of Czech Republic.(0-36-41) Now they are living quite okay. It would seem that they could have been doing that kind of job in Mongolia. But jobs are not available in Mongolia. There is the difficulty in this respect and various other problems. Well may be democracy is developing in Mongolia or may be it is developing in wrong direction. The democracy built in Mongolia, is good for me, I have to think about it. In particular Mongolian population as a whole are suffering from the degradation of ethics and morals. This is a phenomenon among the entire population. Every profession has its own norms of ethics. For example there is the norm of ethics of medicine and medical workers, ethics of school teachers and educators. Such a general (общий-general, overall) lack of ethics has spread throughout Mongolia. Manifestation of this phenomenon is reflected by the lack of respect of human beings to each other, by lack of respect of children to their parents, by the lack of respect of workers to their superiors. It is clearly seen from these relations. When I was at managerial posts in 60’s, 70’s and 80’s the attitude of my subordinates was completely different from that of today in Mongolia. In those days there were many things that was worth to think over. This has a close connection with educational level. The ten year school educational level of children of the present day is incomparable (lit. difference is just like between camel and goat)with that of children of my generation. Ah in a sense if we were to compare level of knowledge of my generation upon graduation from the 10th grade with present graduates of the 10th grade their knowledge is comparable to the 5th grades of the past. This is what I personally believe. If you look at the methods of education of teachers and their performance and the children attending the school this is the present situation. Since their level of education is so low the children do not get sufficient ability of moral judgement nor the consciousness. Yes. On the other hand little attention is being paid to the upbringing of children. Children are running away from schools, they are running away from their homes. (0-39-31) There are many street (lit. vagrant) children. This has profound impact on moral of the people. I hope that a radical change will be made in this sphere in Mongolia. Various ideas are floated. Then after all the state and government should think seriously about improving the living standards. We are living in a rather difficult condition. There is stark difference between the salaries we receive and the living expenses including food for those who live in ger districts. No better for those living in apartments, they have to pay a lot for the apartment. In ger districts prices for fuel, water are on constant increase. Then there is almost no improvement in ger districts. Yes. Ah compared to the 90’s when there was only salt on the grocery shelves things have changed for the better. Goods are abundant. However, we have to pay more attention to the quality of imported goods. As for the food we should consume the best quality products. Plenty of goods are imported from our southern neighbour. From the country being marvelled all over the world we should import the quality goods. While importing the least expensive but low quality goods and delivering them to our people we can not say that their needs are met. From that country which supplies the whole world with food items-the China, Mongolia should import and consume good quality food products. In addition to that wages of the workers should be raised. Then the quality control should be improved. The country should pay more to the issues of this kind. Byambajav Well what was your impression when in 90’s the multi-party system had emerged, when one-party system was eliminated and many parties appeared? Ayushjav Well as far as this was concerned when a group of young people came out and organized meetings and demonstrated with slogans it was somewhat frightening. At that time I was afraid of possible (civil) war and conflicts. As for me I heard about the Khalkhyn gol war and armed conflicts on the western boarders (0-41-55) at the time I was growing up. We have not seen it by our own eyes and had no (intimate) knowledge of it. We only heard news that such events had taken place. We had been living in peace time. So, frankly speaking, at that time there were instances when we were afraid what would happen. Well then in principle the ideology which is now called democracy was supported by almost the entire nation(people). Thanks to it openness and transparency was introduced and it did, to a certain extent, influence positively my own life. Byambajav Were there conflict of views and opinions in your family or among the people you were working together concerning the support of multi-party system? Ayushjav Аh such instances did occur. However, among the medical, in particular, among those working with patients with mental disorders things were slightly different. Actually the people(patients) we work with are difficult individuals to deal with. We had to pay more attention to the patients so that they were not involved in various activities organized by democrats due to emotional instability. Our patients can not make the distinction between the right or wrong of any parties. So there were instances when we were apprehensive of possible involvement of the mentally retarded people who are unable to make any judgment on right or wrong being drawn into various conflicts. Well as for the medical institutions they are, by nature, not very much involved in politics, it is seen rarely. Recently some conflicts around the clinic of contagious disease. I think it was not a political issue. They raised issues related to their livelihood and issues connected with the leadership of one person. But it was not an issue between two (political) parties or politicized steps in my opinion. In fact our workers of medical profession are not prone to such steps. But among them there are groups who support democratic party and the old party. In general broad spectrum of people of senior generation support the activities of the old party but the youth from the beginning supported democracy. This is expressed by their activities, it should be so, there is no doubt that it would be there. Byambajav When the hunger strike was on and the political bureau stepped down you were serving on a leading position. So when that big political body which ruled you stepped down what did you think? Ayushjav As far as I am concerned I was glad. The members of the party themselves and the people supported it as the right decision. I supported it as such. It staved off any possible conflicts. People of my generation consider that the members of the political bureau of the given period found a very correct decision. That was a very right solution. In those days when they stepped down democratically and made the appropriate move the youth of that period such as Elbegdoprj and others also consistently supported that. Byambajav Generally if the political bureau did not surrender (step down) and exerted to other means what would have been the consequences? Ayushjav Bloody plot (conflicts) would emerge. Fighting would erupt. Of course there would be two parties, military would be involved and violations would ensue, that means bloody fighting if the political bureau of the revolutionary party did not surrender and started negotiations and come to agreement ... Byambajav When the political bureau stepped down in its entirety was the crucial decision taken by a group of them or was it the decision of the entire bureau? Ayushjav Oh there was a talk among the population that there was disagreement among them. Some even said let’s bring the military and arrest these a few people. It may be some truth in it. It is quite evident that those over ten people, may be eleven of them or nine of them all did not raise their hands in full agreement. There must have been some conflicts. Later there was some talk to this effect. So it was probably true. Byambajav That doctors’ case of 81, 80’s, for what purpose was that instigated? (0-47-03) Ayushjav Well, it seems that during that period the law was implemented slightly flexible in favor of the general population. So it avoided arresting everyone and implicate them in some crimes and imprison them and where possible it gave suspended sentences or fined them, leniency was practiced for the first offenders. It was such a time. But among them (among law enforcement) there were some …with ill intention, those who were chasing after glory and prestige, such people emerged among the procurators. In those days procurators wanted to take power of law enforcement in their hands and raise their power and influence. Then the husband of Otgonbayar (procurator) was a senior official of the ideological department of the political bureau. And that Otgonbayar was a deputy procurator and she wanted very much to be promoted and become a big boss. Hen there was a chief of department called Jaltsav. He also wanted to be promoted to some high post with such ill intention the whole was concocted. And that was discovered very late. As the consequences the power of procurator was curtailed tantamount to almost nothing. However during the last two, three years the competence of the procurators has been again at the raise. This has become somewhat evident, this is an issue to be examined carefully. Byambajav What did your children think about the multi-party system of that given period? Ayushjav My children all supported democracy at that time. And even today they stand on the side of democracy regardless of party affiliations. During the elections they vote according to their own choices. Democracy is a valuable asset for the population. But today to bring the democracy into the right path has become a difficult problem. Democracy is 16 years old in Mongolia. It has not been formed (established) firmly of course in future it will progress forward. Yeah. It seems to me that it is not so easy to reform and change the old ideological system. When you watch in real life, when you observe the HKU party (abbr. Revolutionary party) it is the case. (0-50-06) While working to a certain degree at a senior post in my clinic I can see that old views are still present. To change the point of views of doctors and make a turn towards new ideas would probably take a long time. So changing once established point of view requires emerging a new generation, only in that way it will be realized. Byambajav Is working with patients suffering from mental disorders very different or difficult that of working with ordinary patients or is there any advantage working with them, are any such differences? Ayushjav There is no advantage at all. Those who are working with psychiatric patients always work under certain psychological pressure. Because when you work at hospital as a doctor you are always concerned that in the hospital rooms patients could fight and might kill each other or some one might escape and freeze to death or drown. You have always this concern in your mind. It is the today. The mental patients are very difficult to deal with. They fight each other. It was even harder when I first arrived as a doctor. In those days the image of mental patients were very distinctive from today’s patients. In our time they were really insane. The symptoms of the disease was very acute. But now in year 2006 the symptoms are very vague. The acute insanity so common in those days are almost gone. This is one of the distinction. On the other hand even out patients clinic the doctor after seeing a patients always worries whether he had examined the patients careful enough. He is concerned what if the patient will strangle himself or jump from some height to death…he is always under such psychological pressure. Yeah. Therefore in foreign countries doctors of psychiatric clinics receive higher salaries, they have longer vacation, the state pays special attention to them. (0-52-24) We don’t have these benefits in Mongolia. But the contrary is the reality. Byambajav Why in the past insanity of the people was so acutely manifested? Ayushjav Аh in those days there were no special drugs to treat psychiatric patients, medicine to suppress the mental disorder. Since 1952 production drugs for mental patients began in the world. So emergence of that drug heralded a revolution in treating mentally ill or psychiatric patients. Before that in foreign countries as well as in Mongolia psychiatric patients were locked up in rooms with iron bars in the window or in rooms with tiny windows. Patient were kept in such rooms with manacles on their hands. After that first drug many new drugs were produced and widely used. Therefore the symptoms of insanity had changed, firstly. Secondly educational level of the world population has generally increased. This also affected the symptoms and characters of the manifestation of disease naturally. For example the form of insanity of a highly educated person is somewhat different. Insanity of an uneducated man is manifested in a completely different manner. Byambajav Then probably the symptoms also display itself in young age as the born illness. Or does it come out as a result of various shock experienced at the work in different situations? Ayushjav Well the origin of mental illness have two main causes, internal and external. Ah the science until now has not been able to establish some of the internal causes. For example there is the mental illness called schizophrenia. People talk about them as person suffering from schizo. The source of this illness has been identified until now in the world it just like the cancer, the cause of cancer has not been established. Then there is the illness of convulsions or the eclampsia, it has its internal causes, that has not been identified till now. What is the cause of this illness…etc. Well, there is the inborn mental retardation which has its origin in foetus. This is its intrinsic nature. (0-54-48) But there are many acquired causes. For example when the child was born somehow the birth process went wrong and the brain of the new born may be damaged due to that people with various mental disorders are emerging. Then various damages or intoxication… while the foetus was growing the mother used various drugs or other substances, or suffered from malnutrition these may have profound affect. Well then there are many infectious diseases as well as road and transport accidents. These are the main factors that cause acquired mental illness. Then of the late various forms of stress have become the cause of mental illness. Mongolia was a very peaceful country for a while but during the last few years many natural calamities such as zud (heavy snow fall and severe cold) had happened. Due to these calamities many households lost their entire livestock and lost their source of livelihood. Because of these calamities entire population of whole territories got stressed. After suffering for long time many commit suicide. There were many instances of strangling due to the loss of cattle. Many terrible and awful crimes unheard before in Mongolia, during my generation had happened since Zorig(one of the leaders of democratic revolution) was killed. Zorig was killed. Since Zorig was killed several times children killed their parents and their brothers and sisters. These crimes put the entire country under stress. These incidents contribute to the increase of mental illness. Suicide rate has climbed in Mongolia. Alcoholism has become common. Those young people who drink alcoholic drink will become parents and have their own children and mentally retarded children will be born. There is no other way. Because of these various reasons mental illness is at increase, it is increasing. Byambajav You were repressed in 81 and you have been imprisoned aren’t you? Ayushjav Imprisoned, I was imprisoned for 6 months. Byambajav How did the prison officials or social workers of the given period treat you and the those repressed during that period? (0-57-19) Ayushjav Oh, in those days prison was full of people. Namely I was brought to the jail and put under investigation in the prison of Gants khudag (Alone well, a prison to north of UB) for quite sometime. There in a room for 4 people, 12 of us were kept. It was impossible to go out and pee, a pitcher was pitcher and we had to pee into it. And you spent the night almost in sitting position. It was such time… I spent 6 months under such a condition. Then there were plenty of louses and nits, louses and the blood sucker what they call it cockroaches no the bedbugs. Bedbugs were crawling everywhere. And then almost no food was given. A slice of bread and black tea was given. A millet soup with small piece of horse meat or guts was given to the inmates. That was the condition. At that time I was rather stout and when out of the prison I had lost at least 20, 30 kg after 6 months. Then they let in cell their thugs and had us beaten…there were such instances of pressure. By deceiving and beating they forced me to give false testimony. Under such conditions I was sentenced. During that period I was investigated by procurators such as Otgonbayar, she is now still alive. I can see now before my eyes the doings of those thugs (lit. thrash). Yeah. Byambajav During the given period had any chance to speak or exchange views with your inmates? Ayushjav Oh we had the chance to exchange a few words. But it was not possible to talk much. There were those peeping Toms (lit. hunting dogs) embedded among them, that was one of the main methods to gather information. They were paid and put among inmates on purpose. In this manner through slander and false accusation many people were put into jail. So those undercover agents came to us. Several person from Erdenet (Copper mine) were sentenced to death, they applied 3, 4 times to the Supreme court and to the President (In those days there was the chairman of the presidium of Great People’s Khural) And only the President was delaying their execution. (1-00-04) But they were absolved later, very late. If they were executed nothing would have happened. That outrageous repression in our time in 81, 82, a terrible repression was carried out. Byambajav When you were absolved officially did you receive any compensation? Ayushjav Oh nothing. No compensation, simply told me you are absolved. Supreme court adopted a resolution. Well we, those who had been repressed wrongly in many different ways hated the revolutionary party and in a hope that the superiors would understand things rightly and we addressed to them with plenty of complaints and petitions and our complaints were never accepted. Therefore we have every reason to feel hurt to the KHU (revolutionary) party, there is no other way. They say that in 30’s victims of repression wrote petitions to in a hope that their beloved father Choibalsan (former leader and Prime Minister of Mongolia) would find the right and wrong. But the man who was supposed to love them ordered their execution. Just like that the officials of the KHU party carried out that repression in 80’s. That was the reason why democracy was so necessary for Mongolia. That was the importance of democracy, there was no other option except supporting activities of the democratic union of Mongolia. I personally till now support it. Byambajav When you supported (democracy) were you afraid that the Mongolian people’s revolutionary party might again repress you? Ayushjav Oh that idea did not come to me at all. Because I had suffered and as for us we had what to say in face of them therefore I did not really mind it. However, I did not participate directly in the demonstrations of the democrats, I did not demonstrate. We were supporting the movement indirectly from distance. Byambajav Well on one hand thanks to democracy, to the democratic revolution people got freedom. Ah on the other hand how did the democratic revolution impact Mongolian economy or in general the independence of the country? (1-02-51) Ayushjav This is only my personal thinking on democracy. Though the democratic revolution had won and economy is progressing, thinking back it would seem to me that we have a lot of things to cherish and give thought to. In particular, on the account of the extractable minerals resources in our soil, actually certain group has divided them(the resources) among themselves and distributed it to the foreigners. This is one problem. Due to slackening of the control over one another under the pretext of democracy squandering of riches had become a common phenomenon. During the period of centrally planned economy there were only 7 to 9 or 9 to 11 members of the political bureau. Well if the resources were squandered and wasted then 11 or 7 individuals did that probably. Yeah. Then now how many persons are behind the 76 (members of the parliament). What people are now talking about seems basically to be true. Why I think so because some people are getting too wealthy. Those who are getting rich if you observe them the job they do or engaged in would seem not the kind of job that would enable them to earn that much money. However, they got a lot of money so this would seem to be a form acquiring the money through some improper way. On the other hand a man who acquired the money by improper way also exert to improper way of spending it such abuse of alcohol, receptions and dinners, to show favouritism or flatter by given money etc. The core of corruption and bribe is closely linked to this problem. Yeah. They don’t care about the real value (of the money). Frankly speaking the money that was earned so easily is spent and giving away to gain certain favor or achieve something. ??? 1-05-14. This is my personal feeling. Someone who had saved the money through hard labour would not have the thought to spend it so frivolously, he will only try to increase it as much as possible. (1-05-25) In this regard the democratic principles and ethics should be revived even the democrats talk about this now. Hopefully, this would be established as a norm in life. I think it is irreversible, I think the democracy is irreversible in Mongolia. I think such things that happened during the socialism will never again come back.(laughs) Byambajav Do you have any more reminisces and impressions about the democracy in general and recollections concerning the events 90’s? Ayushjav Well, I don’t have much to add.